This is a great thread. I'm ignoring all the unfounded doping claims. Yes, specifically Kenya has had some big doping busts recently, but Kenya is not the only place better than the US at the marathon, and just throwing your hands up and saying "everyone's doping! Except for us!" is lazy and we should think harder about this.
1. I agree with the opportunity cost mentioned in the post above. A lot of the best Americans move to the marathon way too late in their career or not at all.
2. Training. Won't get too far into it bc there are many threads on it already, but I think the east African approach is much better than what we do here. Too obsessed with metrics/data and optimizing random little things before actually making yourself a great runner, too much trying to prove fitness in training rather than gain fitness, etc.
3. The NCAA system. It's great at making track stars but not marathoners. Both because of the distances raced in the NCAA (compared to, for example, the Japanese university system) AND the relatively short-term periodization of training. This helps athletes always be sharp but it's harder to build that lifetime fitness with XC, indoor, and outdoor.
4. What our runners do from early childhood until age 18. I think this is talked about the least. A lot of the best marathoners in Kenya and Ethiopia grew up running 10km to school each way. There is no necessity for this in the US. When American athletes are growing up, they are trying out a lot of other sports (in many ways, this is good for the health of our kids!) but most kids, even the ones that rise to stardom in high school, were not running miles every day for years before it. We get into the sport way later. And we have some phenoms who burn out and disappear, but I think this is largely due to parent coaches pushing their training way too hard at a young age. But I don't think it's inherently unhealthy for kids to be doing distance running from a really young age. These are CRITICAL years for developing VO2 max and running economy, which the east Africans definitely beat us in. If we had American athletes who grew up doing a lot of easy running and enjoying it well before high school, while maybe playing other sports here and there, we'd see a lot more people "aerobically gifted" for the marathon.
Things that I don't think matter nearly as much as people say: environment, altitude, genetics, diet, talent pool, doping.
Ryan Hall's marks would STILL be our best marathon performances 10 years after he retired.
He doesn’t have a problem with PEDs in retirement but I’m sure he was completely clean during the entirety of his career.
Kenyans do A LOT of high volume fartlek with rest at sub-tempo pace. So they'll do like 20 x 2 min hard/1 min easy with the 2 minutes at like 2:16 800m pace and the rest at 5:20 mile pace
contrast this to the Americans who occasionally do high volume intervals/fartleks, but only towards the end of their training, and with the rest all at jogging pace.
Or lower volume at a faster pace but doesn't toughen the legs the way the long sessions do.
For example, during marathon training Mantz might do 8 x 800m averaging 2:10 and with a slow jog in between. so that's 4 miles of work with a slow jog in between.
Whereas the kenyans are doing 8 miles worth of work with sub-tempo pace in between for a workout that totals 12 miles where you can never be "off"
If you think America is bad - take a look north of the border. Our top females are ancient and we don't have anyone running sub 2:25 these days. Our entire marathon hopes rest with a Cam, and he's hurt more than he's not.
So if Albertson works another job that means he and Susie Sullivan are better off working a job. What a joke.
Our best runners are upper middle class white, too comfortable. Distance running needs to be more diverse - missed opportunities. And no, it's not wokeism. It's the same for men's soccer, another sport where other countries are better than the US because the sport is open to the poor, rich and middle-class.
Boom. Done. Your comparison to soccer is spot on. At least their coverage and Gram are stellar, along with a good salary. Skills don’t matter as much.
Kenya has 56m people. Don’t babble on about drugs people - just sissy sh*t baby excuses - and exactly why the U.S. is struggling - little sh*t cry babies, worried about which bathroom to use. 40% of the world is sh*tting in holes with no TP and your men are putting socks in bras. Stop it.
The U.S. athletes that do drugs are just better at hiding it. Some are clean, some are dirty. Both countries. Wake up and run 31 miles uphill tomorrow and get back on track. And rip the gald -darn toilet out of your house and sh*t in your back yard. 1st thing in the morning. Do it. You will then have some 2:06 dudes popping up. And throw away that TP.
And… have your 12 year old boys claim they are 18 and move to Kenya to train. And then lie about their age again to run back in the US.
A Kenyan woman just ran 2:09:55. We had two men faster than that. Our women were 11 minutes slower. We have every resource in the world through sponsors and we are also paid much much better each year and supported financially. How are we so bad at this? Is it just not being hungry enough? Is it genetics? Do we need more prize money?
We were better back in the Hall, Meb, Ritz, Abdi days. What gives? Even with our Olympians I'm not sure we would have been more than a minute faster than the Chicago womens champ.
When us runners dope to keep up w africans we hate on them, when they don't dope and lose we hate on them.
Kenyans do A LOT of high volume fartlek with rest at sub-tempo pace. So they'll do like 20 x 2 min hard/1 min easy with the 2 minutes at like 2:16 800m pace and the rest at 5:20 mile pace
contrast this to the Americans who occasionally do high volume intervals/fartleks, but only towards the end of their training, and with the rest all at jogging pace.
Or lower volume at a faster pace but doesn't toughen the legs the way the long sessions do.
For example, during marathon training Mantz might do 8 x 800m averaging 2:10 and with a slow jog in between. so that's 4 miles of work with a slow jog in between.
Whereas the kenyans are doing 8 miles worth of work with sub-tempo pace in between for a workout that totals 12 miles where you can never be "off"
Kenyans do A LOT of high volume fartlek with rest at sub-tempo pace. So they'll do like 20 x 2 min hard/1 min easy with the 2 minutes at like 2:16 800m pace and the rest at 5:20 mile pace
contrast this to the Americans who occasionally do high volume intervals/fartleks, but only towards the end of their training, and with the rest all at jogging pace.
Or lower volume at a faster pace but doesn't toughen the legs the way the long sessions do.
For example, during marathon training Mantz might do 8 x 800m averaging 2:10 and with a slow jog in between. so that's 4 miles of work with a slow jog in between.
Whereas the kenyans are doing 8 miles worth of work with sub-tempo pace in between for a workout that totals 12 miles where you can never be "off"
Fisher winning two Olympic medals indicates he is running at his maximum ability, and it’s the same thing for Young running 26:53 at age 21. Even Kenyans can overtrain.
The US funnels it's kids into soccer camps starting from elementary school. But we aren't yet competitive to I'm the male sector for the world cup. (Some of that due to popularity of basketball and football)
But you have players from poorer countries that have way more stake in the game even without professional training
Kenyans do A LOT of high volume fartlek with rest at sub-tempo pace. So they'll do like 20 x 2 min hard/1 min easy with the 2 minutes at like 2:16 800m pace and the rest at 5:20 mile pace
contrast this to the Americans who occasionally do high volume intervals/fartleks, but only towards the end of their training, and with the rest all at jogging pace.
Or lower volume at a faster pace but doesn't toughen the legs the way the long sessions do.
For example, during marathon training Mantz might do 8 x 800m averaging 2:10 and with a slow jog in between. so that's 4 miles of work with a slow jog in between.
Whereas the kenyans are doing 8 miles worth of work with sub-tempo pace in between for a workout that totals 12 miles where you can never be "off"
Fisher winning two Olympic medals indicates he is running at his maximum ability, and it’s the same thing for Young running 26:53 at age 21. Even Kenyans can overtrain.
except that Fisher doesn't run marathons and by the time he does he'll be past his prime
General belief they are not capable of those kind of times
Choosing Boston and NY instead of faster courses
Being satisfied with being the top American
I’m sure there are many more reasons but it is baffling that we can’t seem to figure the marathon out. As someone mentioned, our top guys have closed the gap in the 800-10k, it stands to reason it’s possible in the marathon.
Hahaha classic ignoring of the elephant in the room.
"Americans" suck at the marathon by comparison to East Africans because they don't have East African bodies. Hence there is no way to win. It astounds me that anyone would become a professional marathoner with that insuperable disadvantage. An exercise in futility, for very little money.