Or you could try more speed work. 200 and/or 300 meter intervals at 90% effort with plenty of recovery time in between.
That is not speedwork, that is interval training. If you do intend to do speedwork of between 30-200 meters make sure they warmup well and do not do it on days when it is colder than 50 degrees. You can hurt runners doing too much of anything, but the 5K is 93% aerobic so make that a priority. (Do a little speed, never get far away from it, but be careful!)
Lydiard would recommend hills and drills on hills. He might also recommend sprints and sprint training. But warmup well and do not have them do that stuff when it is colder than 50 degrees.
Speaking from experience, sometimes girls get stuck in high school at a given time because their bodies are changing. This happened to both me and my sister. She was an 18 minute 5K runner, while I was much slower, so it can happen to runners of all speeds. My mile time actually slowed by 30 seconds while I "grew into" my more curvy body. Over the next year, I was able to drop those 30 seconds again, plus 15 or 20 more.
It's just something you need to be aware of with female high school athletes. In most cases, even if they go backwards for a while, if they stick with it, they'll push past the plateau and make gains. But they may be plateauing for a while for reasons unrelated to shuffling.
Same here. Went through puberty end of Freshman year, was injured Sophomore year as I grew into and adjusted to my new body, and then PR'ed my Junior year.
Also, I'm a skier (grew up in a ski town) and while my legs were really strong, my hip flexors were apparently very weak. Drills didn't help. What did help was going to XC camp and getting filmed and then comparing my lumbering stride with my skier legs going uphill vs a tiny girl dancing up the incline. Once I had that visual in my head, I picked up my knees, lol. You have to actively focus on lifting your knees - it doesn't magically happen as a result of doing drills.
I don't think you should be coaching kids. Find something that you're actually good at.
agreed. what on earth is going on in this thread. this guy has no idea how poorly he's coming across
- although our very beginning runners are allowed to walk their cool down
so you don't allow kids who want to walk, to walk? what do you do, shout at them to get back running or something?
- I require good effort/technique on all exercises we do
or what? these are 27 minute kids and as referenced above, a focus on technique drills may actually be more harm than good. the focus on "I require" is just awful and not kid-focused
- Drills with good posture and technique are some of the most specific core work inexperienced runners/athletes can get
specific work for kids who want to run, is running
- When I see someone stuck at 27 minutes for a couple of years with glaring technique errors
if a kid is stuck at 27 minutes 5k for several years "enforcing" technical drills isn't going to help. maybe look closer to home.
i'm extremely comfortable getting downvoted to hell on this by a bunch of old american men
nowhere does he discus these girls' objectives from running and how he can support them - it's all about him and his preconceived ideas and ideals
this is awful coaching and everyone on the downvote train would do well to revisit their own thinking with helping kids to develop
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Maybe not a popular name to mention these days, but Alberto Salazar had horrible “technique”, he was a shuffler extraordinaire yet dominated the marathon for a few years.
would love to see this guy trying to coach japanese pro women who have honed the shuffling to an art in response to their physicality and physiology
Technique is overrated. If they are fast, who cares what it looks like. Running is not a jury sport, you don't get points for a nice technique.
I think it depends. The OP is talking about kids and at that age, I think it's a good idea to try and improve from for both performance and reducing injury risk. Building good habits when young is always a good idea.
For older runners, form adjustments are harder and actually carry an injury risk. If, as an older runner, you're staying fit and not getting injured, then I wouldn't mess around with form. In either case, I wouldn't be striving for perfection. Plenty of top class distance runners have unconventional form - Obiri, Radcliffe, Mantz, etc. I like to watch the different form of the men's 1500 runners, especially when they're kicking because they're all so different. Jakob maintains his forward lean, Kerr has his head back and starts to bounce a bit more, Hocker flails, Nuguse gets all hunched up. It all works.
This is how I coach . Focusing on a circular motion really helps with shuffling. Next thing, if a runner is doing recovery runs at slower than 10 or 10:30 per mile, I use walk run intervals so they can run at faster speeds, say 9:30-10:00 pace on the run portions, while keeping their HR/effort lower, and this allows for form with more energy return.
My coach had us train with the sprinters between XC and track season. None of us shuffled and we never got outkicked. Drills, weight training, and short repeats will get their legs bouncing.
agreed. what on earth is going on in this thread. this guy has no idea how poorly he's coming across
so you don't allow kids who want to walk, to walk? what do you do, shout at them to get back running or something?
or what? these are 27 minute kids and as referenced above, a focus on technique drills may actually be more harm than good. the focus on "I require" is just awful and not kid-focused
specific work for kids who want to run, is running
if a kid is stuck at 27 minutes 5k for several years "enforcing" technical drills isn't going to help. maybe look closer to home.
i'm extremely comfortable getting downvoted to hell on this by a bunch of old american men
nowhere does he discus these girls' objectives from running and how he can support them - it's all about him and his preconceived ideas and ideals
this is awful coaching and everyone on the downvote train would do well to revisit their own thinking with helping kids to develop
Yet you've offered the following bits of coaching wisdom throughout this thread:
-Ignore slower runners.
-Allow runners to half-a$$ drills
-Warmups and cooldowns are not important
-High school xc athletes and professional marathoners need the same type of coaching
And by the way, you forgot to include the conclusion of the study that you linked. IT states that running mechanics can account for up to 12% of the difference in running efficiency between individuals.
I'm a high school coach, and I have several runners who have been on the team for a few years and have form that wouldn't get them disqualified from a racewalking competition. Overall, I'm of the mindset that mileage fixes technique, and I've see that for a lot of my newer runners, but I'm not sure what to do with these kids who don't lift their knees or bend their legs, even when racing an 800. Has anyone found anything that works?
Man, i have thought about this a lot over the years. So one thing is true, there is no perfect form, I have girl who is a state champ who is a bit of a shuffler but that's an exageration. Point being, am i going to tell her to change? No, but i can dial in some arms a bit maybe get her doing more speed than normal for her 2 mile wheelhouse. I know what you are asking. To me, its a FULL time job. Some drills won't do it. As some have said, you need grass roots drills. Can they do high knees if they focus? Drills can help you find out who perhaps has anatomic limitations you can't fix! But once you know they CAN do it. Commence with the plyo, the speed work, the hills, the weights....These kids just need to work out like long sprinters sometimes. Gonna take commitment. But think about what we say when we talk about hills, speedwork, weights etc for middle distance runners when someone says its a waste? We always argue that above and beyond the aerobic and anaerobic benefits...we are working on leg turnover, form, strength, efficiency.... All thing you seek!
eg, its super hard to do short fast hill repeats without getting our knees up a little and driving the arms more.
This isn't true. You just need to watch elite runners 'jogging' at what is a very easy pace for them, and their heels are still almost touching their butts.
But when they jog slowly they don't lift their heels much and their stride is short.
So the poster you're arguing with is correct.
But they're basically walking (for them).
So I (55 yo) sprint 200m in 29 seconds, and my heels still don't come back as far as Keely Hodgkinson, although I'm running at the same pace as her.
i'm extremely comfortable getting downvoted to hell on this by a bunch of old american men
nowhere does he discus these girls' objectives from running and how he can support them - it's all about him and his preconceived ideas and ideals
this is awful coaching and everyone on the downvote train would do well to revisit their own thinking with helping kids to develop
Yet you've offered the following bits of coaching wisdom throughout this thread:
-Ignore slower runners.
-Allow runners to half-a$ drills
-Warmups and cooldowns are not important
-High school xc athletes and professional marathoners need the same type of coaching
And by the way, you forgot to include the conclusion of the study that you linked. IT states that running mechanics can account for up to 12% of the difference in running efficiency between individuals.
Basically, let slow kids do whatever they want. It doesn't matter anyway. Don't use the word allow though or this person will say you literally abuse children. And don't dare have requirements unless you are literally Hitler. This guy is a piece of work. Or having a schizophrenic episode.
I think the biggest thing is having these kids run fast during track rather than trying to tack on more aerobic development. I was on the "aerobic development trumps all" train for years (and still mostly am), but it's become clearer that building the ability to move well comes from running fast, so I have pretty much all my slower kids focus on the 800 with the occasional 1600 and 400 during track.
Yet you've offered the following bits of coaching wisdom throughout this thread:
-Ignore slower runners.
-Allow runners to half-a$ drills
-Warmups and cooldowns are not important
-High school xc athletes and professional marathoners need the same type of coaching
And by the way, you forgot to include the conclusion of the study that you linked. IT states that running mechanics can account for up to 12% of the difference in running efficiency between individuals.
Basically, let slow kids do whatever they want. It doesn't matter anyway. Don't use the word allow though or this person will say you literally abuse children. And don't dare have requirements unless you are literally Hitler. This guy is a piece of work. Or having a schizophrenic episode.
I think the biggest thing is having these kids run fast during track rather than trying to tack on more aerobic development. I was on the "aerobic development trumps all" train for years (and still mostly am), but it's become clearer that building the ability to move well comes from running fast, so I have pretty much all my slower kids focus on the 800 with the occasional 1600 and 400 during track.
i looked at that guys post history to see if he's always a troll. you should probably listen to him.
his half marathon pr is 1:25, so he knows a thing or 2 about being slow.
i have the answer you are looking for...but I feel i should charge you for it if it works.
So you'll need to have Wejo or Rojo look up my identity to reward me in a year or so.
Get some light (1 pound) ankle weights. DO NOT HAVE THEM RUN VERY FAR IN THEM
instead have them run a short distance and then they can take them off and carry them or drop them (1 pound is not so heavy that carrying them will be an issue = might even build up their arms a little). alternative this method (running with them and then without) - going farther and farther each time as long as there are not having any injury concerns.
this will build strength in the hip flexors and when they take them off they should notice it is a lot easier to pick their feet up as they run.
idea #2 - get some 6 inch training hurdles and have them run some moderate sprints over them. No need to go real fast - you are just trying to get them to change their stride over time. It might even work best to have them go kinda slow - since that is how they run normally.
idea 3# - drills, drills, drills. Think of this like swimming. If you want to improve your form you have to work on it all the time. So instead of having them just do miles (and run) everything they do should be in the form of a drill (either going over the small training hurdles, wearing the ankle weights, or some kind of form drill).
here is a story of my experience with the ankle weights. Had an injury for 5 years - wouldn't go away. Got the crazy (some might say stupid) idea of using ankle wights. At first was just wearing them around the house and noticed how much better my groin felt. Decided to take the plunge and wear them while running/jogging. I was not brave or stupid enough to go outside and run. Instead, I found some tumbling mats (cheerleader and gymnasts use) and just ran back and forth. From the very first step i was like this is working - everything is feeling better. I couldn't stop - went for 30:00 - probably much longer than advisable, but as soon as I took them off (I was using about 3 lb wts - which i realize now is a lot) I ran a 200 and could not believe how quick my turnover was. I was healed and have been using ankle wts in training now for 1.5 years. Sometimes I overdo it (like going too long and or with too much weight) but sometimes I feel I have to push the limit to see what works. I still have not run outside with the weights - only using them inside on tumbling mats. Have gone as long as 1 hour straight. When I do anything over 2 lbs I have to limit how long I go. 40 min with 2 lb is my cutoff. If I go up to 3lbs I stay under 30 min. You have to experiment with them to find out what works- but they do work. Most people will tell you not to use them because some idiot they know got hurt using them. That is only because they thought they could just put on the weight and go out and run without gradually building into using them. As I said, one year and a half and I still haven't gone outside with them. I have actually used them in intervals. That was a big (and scary step). But again surprised at how well they worked - only using 1 lb for these. Tried more but that is a big mistake. I have also used a weight vest - this is more wight (12 pounds) but since it sits on top of you it affects you differently. For me this is about making me run with good posture. I actually find that I run better in my warmup using the weight vest. I have done 800's and even a couple of mile reps with the vest. Results: very interesting. Obviously slower. But it sure makes you strong. I don't know if I would have HS girls use a weight vest, but again if you want to think outside the norm - it might help if used on a limited basis. the only way to know is to try glitzyinfo. Last tip: Try these things on yourself first before having any of your athletes use them = this will give you a lot of insight into how they are going to be feeling.
MrE, imho they shuffle because they are slow, not the other way around.
If Mo Farah would run 27min 5k pace he would shuffle too.
I appreciate the opinion, but it doesn't match with what I'm seeing. Even when "sprinting" a 90 second 400, there is essentially zero back kick or knee drive.
90 secs isnt a sprint, its closer to middle distance, at least for this athlete. Have her do 200
i'm extremely comfortable getting downvoted to hell on this by a bunch of old american men
nowhere does he discus these girls' objectives from running and how he can support them - it's all about him and his preconceived ideas and ideals
this is awful coaching and everyone on the downvote train would do well to revisit their own thinking with helping kids to develop
Yet you've offered the following bits of coaching wisdom throughout this thread:
-Ignore slower runners.
-Allow runners to half-a$ drills
-Warmups and cooldowns are not important
-High school xc athletes and professional marathoners need the same type of coaching
And by the way, you forgot to include the conclusion of the study that you linked. IT states that running mechanics can account for up to 12% of the difference in running efficiency between individuals.
what a load of rubbish.
- ignoring slow runners
To say i support 'ignoring slower runners' is to mischaracterise. I think coaches trying too hard to prove their value should "leave them alone and hope they enjoy their running".
In your detailed analysis of my comments you ignore the bits where I said "discus these girls' objectives from running and how he can support them" I said "consider what is your objective for a 27 minute 5k teenager? if it's not - 'helping them find a love of some form of excercise they'll continue after we part ways'" does that sound like 'ignoring slow runners' to you?
- Half as$ing drills
absolutely. Waste of time and effort at the best of times unless you're a pro or sprinter. especially a waste of time when just nice easy jogging is what you need to be doing to instil a love for the benefits of running
- warmups and cooldowns not important
no idea what you're on about. warm ups and cool downs are important. ie running gently at beginning and end of session.
- high school athletes and professional marathoners need the same type of coaching
no idea what you're on about in my comments. It's obviously partially true, and partially not. A focus on biomechanic hocus-pocus is not needed for either (unless related persistent injury), so the same in that regard.
- 12% biomechanical impact
smh. running mechanics matters, but not visible form. noone knows what elements of running mechanics matter, but it's not knee lift and all the other nonsense many people are saying in this thread. all the stuff found to make no difference. shuffling makes no difference.
Everyone thinks they know what a 'good' long-distance runner looks like - . just let the kids run more and their RE will improve
Anyway, you specifically ignored all the quotes and pick out one number that doesn't even say what you think it said. hardly a useful discussion
I'm extremely happy to be in a major minority on this one. I've said it before I'll say it again
anyone who thinks technique is an improvement barrier for a TWENTY SEVEN MINUTE 5ker rather than just instilling a love for running a bit more is also insane. this thread is insane
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
Basically, let slow kids do whatever they want. It doesn't matter anyway. Don't use the word allow though or this person will say you literally abuse children. And don't dare have requirements unless you are literally Hitler. This guy is a piece of work. Or having a schizophrenic episode.
I think the biggest thing is having these kids run fast during track rather than trying to tack on more aerobic development. I was on the "aerobic development trumps all" train for years (and still mostly am), but it's become clearer that building the ability to move well comes from running fast, so I have pretty much all my slower kids focus on the 800 with the occasional 1600 and 400 during track.
i looked at that guys post history to see if he's always a troll. you should probably listen to him.
his half marathon pr is 1:25, so he knows a thing or 2 about being slow.
bla bla bla yes my pbs are 17/36/125. you're clearly a subscriber to look at my posting history but post anonymously
Can subscribers see post history? What does the screen look like - how much depth and search fuctionality is there? I would love to see my early posts as well as track down some old posts by Magness and other knowledgeable former posters.
