Getting runners to RUN instead of shuffling

I have had the same issue, mostly with girls. In all my years, I never got any to improve it much, if at all, until this season. I just told her why it was so inefficient, and how she would get more power with better form. It worked. I was shocked!

I appreciate the opinion, but it doesn't match with what I'm seeing. Even when "sprinting" a 90 second 400, there is essentially zero back kick or knee drive.

Did she get more power and improve significantly?

Who tf cares about 'enforcing' technique for 27 minute girls?! This is for 5km presumably?

Just leave them be and hope they enjoy their running.

This thread is insane

Everyone has different biomechanics. It's not hard to figure out.

As a longtime shuffler, I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. They'll get faster by running more miles mostly, but also by doing some strides, tempo runs, and VO2 max speed work, not by "fixing" their form. I'm a woman, former girl, who shuffles the vast majority of the time but I can and do run 5Ks much faster than 27 minutes. I got faster mostly just by shuffling a lot of miles.

Agree! They shuffle because they really don’t give a sh**. They are participants, not athletes, and they are just trying to do the run in the easiest and lowest effort possible. Why did they sign up for XC? No cuts? Social clout? Weight loss? Friend talked them into it? Who cares! Focus on the athletes that wish to improve and race at a high level. Let the shufflers enjoy the sport on their own terms. This will make your life easier and coaching more enjoyable.

You know nothing about my coaching outside of this post. When I say "enforcing" I just mean requiring my entire team (from the 18-flat girls to the over 30 minute girls) to do drills with good effort and technique.

They get a lot of satisfaction out of setting new PRs, but it seems like technique is really limiting their ability to continue improving. If we could change something and unlock some new potential for these girls, I'd love to do that for them.

Sure, but some biomechanics are clearly more functional than others. If someone threw a baseball wrong, you wouldn't just say "oh well, they have different biomechanics." Some people never learn to run properly and don't just naturally figure it out.

Respectfully disagree. They enjoy running and take great pride in setting PRs. The shuffliest of the shufflers actually do some summer training and come to weekend practices. My life is very easy and coaching very enjoyable, thank you.

A decent HS coach should care about all his/hers runners, not just the elite athletes. Giving them what they need to succeed doesn't take time away from the better runners.

I run 16 for 5k and often run 8:30-9:15...

maybe show them videos of what they're doing vs what they should be doing.

i have the answer you are looking for...but I feel i should charge you for it if it works.

So you'll need to have Wejo or Rojo look up my identity to reward me in a year or so.

Get some light (1 pound) ankle weights. DO NOT HAVE THEM RUN VERY FAR IN THEM

instead have them run a short distance and then they can take them off and carry them or drop them (1 pound is not so heavy that carrying them will be an issue = might even build up their arms a little). alternative this method (running with them and then without) - going farther and farther each time as long as there are not having any injury concerns.

this will build strength in the hip flexors and when they take them off they should notice it is a lot easier to pick their feet up as they run.

idea #2 - get some 6 inch training hurdles and have them run some moderate sprints over them. No need to go real fast - you are just trying to get them to change their stride over time. It might even work best to have them go kinda slow - since that is how they run normally.

idea 3# - drills, drills, drills. Think of this like swimming. If you want to improve your form you have to work on it all the time. So instead of having them just do miles (and run) everything they do should be in the form of a drill (either going over the small training hurdles, wearing the ankle weights, or some kind of form drill).

here is a story of my experience with the ankle weights. Had an injury for 5 years - wouldn't go away. Got the crazy (some might say stupid) idea of using ankle wights. At first was just wearing them around the house and noticed how much better my groin felt. Decided to take the plunge and wear them while running/jogging. I was not brave or stupid enough to go outside and run. Instead, I found some tumbling mats (cheerleader and gymnasts use) and just ran back and forth. From the very first step i was like this is working - everything is feeling better. I couldn't stop - went for 30:00 - probably much longer than advisable, but as soon as I took them off (I was using about 3 lb wts - which i realize now is a lot) I ran a 200 and could not believe how quick my turnover was. I was healed and have been using ankle wts in training now for 1.5 years. Sometimes I overdo it (like going too long and or with too much weight) but sometimes I feel I have to push the limit to see what works. I still have not run outside with the weights - only using them inside on tumbling mats. Have gone as long as 1 hour straight. When I do anything over 2 lbs I have to limit how long I go. 40 min with 2 lb is my cutoff. If I go up to 3lbs I stay under 30 min. You have to experiment with them to find out what works- but they do work. Most people will tell you not to use them because some idiot they know got hurt using them. That is only because they thought they could just put on the weight and go out and run without gradually building into using them. As I said, one year and a half and I still haven't gone outside with them. I have actually used them in intervals. That was a big (and scary step). But again surprised at how well they worked - only using 1 lb for these. Tried more but that is a big mistake. I have also used a weight vest - this is more wight (12 pounds) but since it sits on top of you it affects you differently. For me this is about making me run with good posture. I actually find that I run better in my warmup using the weight vest. I have done 800's and even a couple of mile reps with the vest. Results: very interesting. Obviously slower. But it sure makes you strong. I don't know if I would have HS girls use a weight vest, but again if you want to think outside the norm - it might help if used on a limited basis. the only way to know is to try. Last tip: Try these things on yourself first before having any of your athletes use them = this will give you a lot of insight into how they are going to be feeling.

OK Mr "enforcer" who wants to "get runners to RUN".

Technique and drills are not "really limiting their ability to continue improving" beyond 27 minute 5k

anyone who thinks technique is an improvement barrier for a TWENTY SEVEN MINUTE 5ker rather than just instilling a love for running a bit more is also insane. this thread is insane

I'm sorry you find it so offensive. I'm trying to figure out what I can do besides just saying "run more" to help every member of my team succeed. Clearly you disagree, and your opinion is noted. If you have anything new to add, I'm happy to hear it.

Yes, clearly I'm having them run more, as well.

Does it look they're ice skating? That's what my daughter's lack of knee lift looks like.

She's a decent runner with 5:10 1500m/19:00 5k but she is losing ground with every step she takes. We've done everything to try to help - drills, hills, strides, weights, etc. She takes 190-200 steps per minute and looks like she's going nowhere. Unless they commit to actually want to fix the issue themselves there isn't much you can do.

I do have some things to add

- look at the latest research about running economy for inexperienced runners. It's contested but leans toward showing that focusing on technique is negligible for performance and not worth it unless they're getting inured (1). Also, it can even increase injury risk along the chain when you 'require' someone to change their natural gait

- consider what is your objective for a 27 minute 5k teenager? if it's not - 'helping them find a love of some form of excercise they'll continue after we part ways' then what is it? what are you achieving by "requiring" good technique during drills?

- consider your use of terms like "getting runners to RUN", "requiring", "I've started really enforcing good technique" and what it is doing to the kids in your charge. I've been a teacher in my past (just Maths not sports) and these terms are warning flags to me.

- even your use of the term "if we could...unlock some new potential for the girls, I'd love to do that for them" is odd. a) they already have the potential b) this isn't about you.

(1)

Results: Fifty-one studies (n = 1115 participants) were included. Most spatiotemporal outcomes showed trivial and non-significant associations with RE: contact time r = - 0.02 (95% confidence interval [CI] - 0.15 to 0.12); flight time r = 0.11 (- 0.09 to 0.32); stride time r = 0.01 (- 0.8 to 0.50); duty factor r = - 0.06 (- 0.18 to 0.06); stride length r = 0.12 (- 0.15 to 0.38), and swing time r = 0.12 (- 0.13 to 0.36). A higher cadence showed a small significant association with a lower oxygen/energy cost (r = - 0.20 [- 0.35 to - 0.05]). A smaller vertical displacement and higher vertical and leg stiffness showed significant moderate associations with lower oxygen/energy cost (r = 0.35, - 0.31, - 0.28, respectively). Ankle, knee, and hip angles at initial contact, midstance or toe-off as well as their range of motion, peak vertical ground reaction force, mechanical work variables, and electromyographic activation were not significantly associated with RE, although potentially relevant trends were observed for some outcomes.

and something else for you to read - a write-up of the paper with more background

outsideonline.com

The Quest for Ideal Running Form

jversteegh

Everyone knows how to run. Now biomechanical analysis may teach us how to do it better.

Link:www.outsideonline.com/health/training-...

Injury Prevention Has to Be Considered as Well

We may also be optimizing form for factors other than efficiency. Saving energy makes you faster, but avoiding injury is a higher priority for many runners. The strides we adopt may be tuned in part by an instinct to avoid overloading individual muscles or tendons, which would blur the relationship between biomechanics and running economy. And trying to micromanage elements of your stride has a cost: several studies have found that the mere act of focusing on form, instead of letting your mind wander, makes your running economy worse by a few percent—the equivalent of running in outdated sneakers instead of the latest super shoes.

So should we even try to run better? “I would say it’s something to consider,” Van Hooren says, “but not the primary factor, as most people will self-optimize with sufficient training.” That’s a key point: one research finding that’s rock-solid is that we get more efficient with experience.

More mileage definitely not the solution here. It just ingrains poor technique permanently and makes people more tired to lift the knee.