Div II vs. Div III, The Individuals

it was a long standing course record because nobody ever races there.

I used to live there, and Chalco Hills is a legit course, but they very rarely have collegiate meets there that are of any caliber. The time is legit and so is the course, but saying that it was a terrific because it was a long standing course record.

Further, I don't really dispute the fact that a dual National championship race would be won by D2 teams and an individual, but let's get beyond the obvious.

Aish is almost an exception. He is a remarkable athlete that D2 will only see every so often, not every year.

Further, even with him, he can do no better than score one point. Dominance aside, he's just one man.

Western State and Adams State and Abilene Christian, etc... There are only a handful of totally untouchable schools out there. Remember when Calvin got beat at an early season meet last year by a d2 meet? Remember when Arkansas got beat by ACU in cross? Big whoop. Calvin, as a team, ran like crap until late October last year. Still might be apples to apples, but at least be a little bit more reasonable.

The truth is, D2 has some outstanding athletes, but it trails off quickly. 30th man in the 10k last track season:

D2-31:10 D3-31:14

conclusion, D2 would dominate up front, but as the pack comes around, it's fairly even.

Great to see some DII and DIII discussion. DII top guys and 2-3 teams are probably better than DIII. But after that, I am pretty sure that DIII is at least as deep and maybe deeper. The 10th place team in DIII is probably even with 10th best in DII.

It's funny how this whole thing got kind of personal. There just isn't that much money at DII, most of the Kiwis at Western were on big academic scholarships because they just kill the ACT.

Good point about the different distances at NCAA's. Trust me when I say that Coach Vandenbusche could bring in 7 eskimoes and in about one year have them running like studs. The altitude and the attitude in Gunnison are just that superior!! Another great program lives in their shadow just down the road in Alamosa. You can also put good teams on the board every year from UC Davis, South Dakota, Truman, Edinboro, and SDSU to name just a few. DIII has some very storied teams from North Central, UW LaCrosse, Calvin, Middlebury and so on. Before somebody rags on Western please do me this small favor. Pick up the phone and call Coach V and after talking with him for 30 minutes, see if you don't just want to go train to be a champion. The man is a great teacher and person. Don't trip on the international thing. Repeat after me: Good running is good running is good running is good running-see you're getting already.

Peace

You can't throw out the age thing and just say "good running is good running." That is too simplistic. Running is sport where training and racing experience builds off previous years. For example, a 29 year-old guy at the peak of his career who runs 28:30 is good but running 28:30 as a freshman in college is pretty studly. So when these 25 year old Kiwis, Kenyans, and Americans (Hubbard was a pretty old dude when he finished up at Adams) are dominating the 19-20-21 year old kids you can't throw the age and experience thing out.

Duder wrote:

I hope the foreign contingent at Abiliene beats your guys at Western, not that all of the guys are cocky but certain people involved with the program sure give them a bad rep.

Duder, don't take things so personally. This message board is here for us to state our opinions. I don't see how I am giving Western State a bad rap. All I have said is that I believe based on past results that the top division 2 runners are better than the top division 3 runners. As I have stated earlier, I believe the depth may be better in Division 3 right now. As far as Western vs Abiline, the last few national results speak for themselves. And don't kid yourself, Michael Aish has won 12 national titles, has run 13:22, 28:00, 4:02, made an Olympic team and placed at the Commonwealth Games. Rugema and all the African runners at Abiline know and respect Michael Aish as well as anyone who has run against him. And by no means do I think Western State is invincible, but they do return 6 of their top 7 from a dominant team last year. And the last time I checked a single runner has never won a national championship by him or herself.

Duder wrote:

If Rugema is healthy no one from Western should be close, just like at Pomona in 2000. Ruben\'s race was a great race but he has not been near that type of runner on the results books since then. Jason Hubbard is gone. Michael Aish is gone.

Eberly?

I take things personally when I write something that i feel is clear and someone turns it completely around. I never said Aish was not good. Are you crazy, where did that come from. Open your eyes and read without thinking about something else. Abiliene is at their best right now and it should be interesting. Western runners are very good and I respect their program just not some of the attitudes that come with it, like jumping down someones throat when they are clearly not knocking the program or past runners. Take a hint.

what olympic team did aish make?

if you do not mind, please drop me a line offline - my e-mail is posted.

I would like to think that the 10th best team in div III would be as good as the 15 - 18th best team in div II. There is a comparision with div II and div III but its probably not 10th best in one division is 10th best in another division. Have to look up some research on this.

Aish cometed for New Zealand in the 10000 at the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

compare: (DII first, then DIII)

Event 24 Men's 800 Meter Run

Automatic Mark: 1:49.40

Provisional Mrk: 1:52.60

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 John Kemboi SR Abilene Chr. 1:46.97 1:46.97 05/04 Arlington, TX

2 Jackson Langat FR Tarleton St. 1:47.37 1:47.37 04/13 San Angelo, TX

3 Jean-Marie Ndikmanai JR Abilene Chr. 1:49.77 1:49.77 04/13 San Angelo, TX

4 Ryan Locklin SR Chico State 1:49.99 1:49.99 03/02 CCAA Opener

5 Bernard Manirakiza SO Abilene Chr. 1:50.07 1:50.07 04/13 San Angelo, TX

6 Andy Moen JR ND State 1:50.09 1:50.09 03/16 Tallahassee, FL

7 Benjamin Lengerich SR Co.-Mines 1:50.37 1:50.37 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

8 Leif Kennedy SO Cent. Mo. St 1:50.58 1:50.58 04/19 Warrensburg, MO

9 Mathew Walsh SO Co.-Mines 1:50.60 1:50.60 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

10 Headley Bent SR Lewis Univ. 1:50.72 1:50.72 05/11 Billy Hayes

11 Tony Martinelli FR Chico State 1:50.88 1:50.88 04/20 UC Davis

12 Aaron Davis SO Adams State 1:50.89 1:50.89 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

13 Jeff Arnold SR Pittsburg St 1:50.90 1:50.90 04/13 Emporia, KS

14 Aaron Berndt SR North Dakota 1:51.21 1:51.21 04/13 Emporia, KS

15 Josh Stryker SR Northwood 1:51.40 1:51.40 05/11 Indianapolis, IN

16 Aaron Klingbeil SR ND State 1:51.41 1:51.41 05/03 Sioux Falls, SD

17 Dan Walden SR S.Ill-Edwar 1:51.43 1:51.43 05/10 Billy Hayes

18 Moses Tum SO Colorado Spr 1:51.75 1:51.75 04/06 Greeley, CO

19 Matt Sauls SR Lock Haven 1:51.60h 1:51.84 05/04 Lock Haven, PA

20 Brad Lowery FR SD State 1:51.90 1:51.90 04/13 Emporia, KS

21 Martin Okello SO Abilene Chr. 1:52.07 1:52.07 04/13 San Angelo, TX

22 Augustana Trapp SR Augustana 1:52.10 1:52.10 04/19 Sioux City Relays

23 Vinny Beebe SO Ashland 1:52.14 1:52.14 05/04 CLIAC

24 Eric Weaver JR Adams State 1:52.19 1:52.19 05/04 RMAC

25 Kyle Keraus JR Nw. Mo. St. 1:52.22 1:52.22 04/13 Emporia, KS

26 John Heil JR Nw. Mo. St. 1:52.23 1:52.23 05/11 Emporia, KS

27 Garrye Chavis JR St. Aug's 1:52.24 1:52.24 03/30 Raleigh Relays

28 Adam Moos JR Ft. Hays St. 1:52.40 1:52.40 05/11 Emporia, KS

29 Adam Gellerstedt SO Minn-Duluth 1:52.45 1:52.45 05/11 NSIC

30 Jon Wong SR UC San Diego 1:52.52 1:52.52 03/09 CSU Fullerton

31 Richard Skirball SO S.Ill-Edwar 1:52.54 1:52.54 04/13 Edwardsville, IL

Event 25 Men's 1,500 Meter Run

Automatic Mark: 3:47.00

Provisional Mrk: 3:55.00

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 John Kemboi SR Abilene Chr. 3:42.51 3:42.51 03/30 Stanford

2 Michael Aish SR Western St. 3:45.28 3:45.28 05/03 Stanford

3 Jean-Marie Ndikmanai JR Abilene Chr. 3:46.36 3:46.36 03/30 Stanford

4 Jerry Reckart JR N. Florida 3:47.22 3:47.22 03/23 Tallahassee, FL

5 Bernard Manirakiza SO Abilene Chr. 3:47.54 3:47.54 03/29 Stanford

6 Josh Eberly JR Western St. Alt. Adj A3:48.28 3:48.28 05/04 (Alt-8.89) RMAC

7 Scott Nagelkerke SO Western St. Alt. Adj A3:48.29 3:48.29 05/04 (Alt-8.89) RMAC

8 Paul Kezes JR Western St. 3:48.65 3:48.65 05/11 Emporia, KS

9 Martin Okello SO Abilene Chr. 3:48.65 3:48.65 04/20 Commerce, TX

10 Doug Mascherino SR West Chester 3:49.42 3:49.42 04/20 Widener Invit

11 Mike Knutson JR Cent. Mo. St 3:49.71 3:49.71 05/11 Emporia, KS

12 Paul McRae JR Western St. Alt. Adj A3:49.99 3:49.99 05/04 (Atl-8.89) RMAC

13 Brad Lowery FR SD State 3:50.02 3:50.02 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

14 Jason Donald JR Western St. Alt. Adj A3:50.18 3:50.18 045/04 (Alt-8.89) RMAC

15 Matt Pearson SO SD State 3:50.25 3:50.25 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

16 Nathanael Castle SR Seattle Paci 3:50.44 3:50.44 05/11 Seattle, WA

17 Rubin McRae JR Western St. 3:50.57 3:50.57 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

18 Charlie Hawkins FR Mssri-Rolla 3:50.75 3:50.75 05/11 Indianapolis, IN

19 Brad Regan FR Adams State 3:50.75 3:50.75 05/04 (Alt-8.89) RMAC

20 Matt Helbig JR Truman State 3:51.21 3:51.21 05/11 Indianapolis, IN

21 Michael Sharkey JR Co.-Mines 3:51.50 3:51.50 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

22 Nathan Carlson SO St Martin's 3:52.11 3:52.11 05/11 Seattle, WA

23 Steven Springhorn FR Chico State 3:52.20 3:52.20 05/04 Sacramento, CA

24 Jon Wong SR UC San Diego 3:52.22 3:52.22 04/19 Pomona-Pitzer

25 Kevin Alliette JR Umass-Lowell 3:52.29 3:52.29 04/20 Northeastern

26 Will Banks SO Western St. 3:52.36 3:52.36 03/16 Tucson, AR

27 Paul Mann SO Colorado Spr Alt. Adj A3:52.36 3:52.36 05/04 (Alt-8.89) RMAC

28 Mario Rodriguez SR Chico State 3:52.37 3:52.37 03/29 Stanford

29 Manuel Lopez JR Cs-Stanislau 3:52.68 3:52.68 05/10 CCAA

30 Philip McPherson JR Western St. 3:52.88 3:52.88 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

31 Kevin Blacquiere SR Grand Valley 3:53.16 3:53.16 04/20 Butler U

32 Dave Ross SR Grand Valley 3:53.69 3:53.69 05/10 Ann Arbor, MI

33 Brett Carroll JR Minn-Duluth 3:53.75 3:53.75 05/11 NSIC

34 Josh Merrick FR Adams State 3:53.82 3:53.82 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

35 Nate Iler SO Ashland 3:53.70h 3:53.94 04/27 Berea, OH

36 John Parson SO Indianapolis 3:53.97 3:53.97 05/11 Indianapolis, IN

37 Lutz Braun SR Cal Poly 3:54.12 3:54.12 04/13 UC San Diego

38 Nate Beerling SO Minn-Duluth 3:54.20 3:54.20 05/11 NSIC

39 Paul Bennett SR Cent. Mo. St 3:54.21 3:54.21 05/11 Emporia, KS

40 Joe Sans SR Umass-Lowell 3:54.28 3:54.28 05/11 New England Champs

41 Doug Schwartz SO S.Indiana 3:54.35 3:54.35 05/11 Bulldog Qualifier

42 Darik Hoff JR ND State 3:54.41 3:54.41 04/13 Emporia, KS

43 Kevin Doe JR SD State 3:54.43 3:54.43 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

44 Chris Layman FR Chico State 3:54.52 3:54.52 04/13 Berkeley, CA

45 Jose Palacios JR Cs-Stanislau 3:54.53 3:54.53 05/04 Stanford

46 Reed Fisher SR Harding 3:54.84 3:54.84 05/04 Arlington, TX

47 Tony Juarez SO Clayton 3:54.92 3:54.92 05/11 Florida State

48 Matt Rainwater JR Cal Poly 3:54.98 3:54.98 03/23 La Verne, CA

Event 27 Men's 5,000 Meter Run

Automatic Mark: 14:00.00

Provisional Mrk: 14:50.00

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 Michael Aish SR Western St. 13:22.64 13:22.64 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

2 Paul McRae JR Western St. 13:58.04 13:58.04 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

3 Scott Nagelkerke SO Western St. 14:02.87 14:02.87 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

4 Celedonio Rodriguez FR Adams State 14:04.48 14:04.48 05/10 Stanford

5 Josh Eberly JR Western St. 14:06.29 14:06.29 05/10 Stanford

6 Matt Levassiur SO Adams State 14:14.32 14:14.32 05/10 Stanford

7 Rubin McRae JR Western St. 14:17.58 14:17.58 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

8 Mark Stallings JR Millersville 14:19.03 14:19.03 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

9 Ryan Miller SR UC Davis 14:25.93 14:25.93 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

10 Arthemon Sindayigaya JR Abilene Chr. 14:26.15 14:26.15 04/25 Penn Relays

11 Steve Laurie JR UC Davis 14:26.42 14:26.42 03/29 Stanford

12 Steve Larson SO Hillsdale 14:27.59 14:27.59 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

13 Tyler Graff SO Chico State 14:32.31 14:32.31 04/20 UC Davis

14 Jacob Rotich SO Harding 14:32.30h 14:32.54 04/09 Searcy, AK

15 Aaron Rowe JR Edinboro 14:32.84 14:32.84 05/10 PSAC

16 Arturo Cabral SR Lewis Univ. 14:33.27 14:33.27 05/11 Butler

17 Zepherinus Joseph SR N. Florida 14:33.99 14:33.99 05/11 FSU Twilight

18 Enrique Guerrero JR Adams State 14:34.05 14:34.05 05/10 Stanford

19 Jason Walker SR Humboldt St. 14:35.10h 14:35.34 04/05 SAlem, OR

20 Sean Rivers SO Anchorage 14:35.40h 14:35.64 04/06 Williamette Invit

21 Chris Eggers FR Chico State 14:35.85 14:35.85 04/20 UC Davis

22 Jerry Reckart JR N. Florida 14:36.26 14:36.26 04/25 Penn Relays

23 Kevin Doe JR SD State 14:37.03 14:37.03 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

24 Carl Mease JR Umass-Lowell 14:39.27 14:39.27 05/10 New England Champs

25 Linus Chepkwony SR Harding 14:42.21 14:42.21 05/04 Arlington, TX

26 Juan Sanchez JR Chico State 14:43.90 14:43.90 04/20 UC Davis

27 Will Merchad FR UC Davis 14:44.91 14:44.91 04/20 UC Davis

28 Trevor McGinn SR L. Superior 14:45.04 14:45.04 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

29 Justin Rau FR UC Davis 14:45.42 14:45.42 03/09 UC Davis

30 Joseph LeRoux SR Western St. 14:46.16 14:46.16 04/20 Mt SAC Relays

31 David Braund SR Chico State 14:47.30h 14:47.54 03/09 UC Davis

32 Kelly Christianson FR Western St. Alt. Adj A14:48.03 14:48.03 05/04 (Alt-41.07)RMAC

33 Will Banks SO Western St. 14:49.15 14:49.15 03/22 Tempe, AZ

34 Joey Byrne JR S.Indiana 14:49.50 14:49.50 04/06 St. Louis, MO

Event 28 Men's 10,000 Meter Run

Automatic Mark: 29:20.00

Provisional Mrk: 31:25.00

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 Celedonio Rodriguez FR Adams State 29:11.29 29:11.29 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

2 Josh Eberly JR Western St. 29:25.09 29:25.09 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

3 Mark Stallings JR Millersville 29:43.14 29:43.14 04/25 Penn Relays

4 Arthemon Sindayigaya JR Abilene Chr. 29:50.95 29:50.95 03/29 Stanford

5 Ryan Miller SR UC Davis 29:52.54 29:52.54 03/29 Stanford

6 Zepherinus Joseph SR N. Florida 29:55.82 29:55.82 03/22 Tallahassee, FL

7 YiMin Wu SR Edinboro 30:02.75 30:02.75 04/25 Penn Relays

8 Aaron Rowe JR Edinboro 30:03.72 30:03.72 04/06 Duke Invit

9 Chris Cowan FR Lock Haven 30:05.76 30:05.76 04/25 Penn Relays

10 Andy Doering SR Truman State 30:11.79 30:11.79 04/25 Drake Relays

11 Matt Levassiur SO Adams State Alt. Adj A30:12.56 30:12.56 05/03 (Alt-1:41.37) RMAC

12 Justin Andre SR L. Superior 30:17.13 30:17.13 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

13 Michael Aish SR Western St. Alt. Adj A30:20.81 30:20.81 04/06 (Alt-101.37) Alamosa, CO

14 Sean Rivers SO Anchorage 30:21.65 30:21.65 03/29 Stanford

15 Joey Byrne JR S.Indiana 30:24.27 30:24.27 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

16 Tyler Graff SO Chico State 30:25.53 30:25.53 03/29 Stanford

17 John Poray JR Indianapolis 30:25.67 30:25.67 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

18 David Braund SR Chico State 30:25.75 30:25.75 03/29 Stanford

19 Randy Scherer JR Hillsdale 30:26.84 30:26.84 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

20 Marty Rosendahl SR Mankato St. 30:29.42 30:29.42 04/25 Drake Relays

21 Enrique Guerrero JR Adams State Alt. Adj A30:30.22 30:30.22 05/03 (Alt-1:41.37) RMAC

22 Jacob Rotich SO Harding 30:32.63 30:32.63 04/18 Kansas Relays

23 Scott Nagelkerke SO Western St. Alt. Adj A30:35.78 30:35.78 04/06 (ALt-101.37) Alamosa, CO

24 Arturo Cabral SR Lewis Univ. 30:38.13 30:38.13 03/30 Raleigh Relays

25 Adolfo Carrillo SR Colorado Spr 30:39.45 30:39.45 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

26 Jon Murphy JR Umass-Lowell 30:45.99 30:45.99 04/25 Penn Relays

27 Tim Parr FR Western St. 30:51.89 30:51.89 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

28 Paul McRae JR Western St. Alt. Adj A30:56.01 30:56.01 04/06 (Alt-101.37) Alamosa, CO

29 Kyle Fujimoto FR Hillsdale 30:58.47 30:58.47 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

30 Steve Pizzulli SO Millersville 31:10.37 31:10.37 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

31 Andy Alexander JR Ashland 31:16.11 31:16.11 05/03 GLIAC

32 Jason Donald JR Western St. Alt. Adj A31:16.58 31:16.58 04/06 (Alt-101.37) Alamosa, CO

33 Jon Francis SO Augustana 31:21.21 31:21.21 04/26 Drake Relays

Event 26 Men's 3,000 Meter Steeplechase

Automatic Mark: 9:00.00

Provisional Mrk: 9:25.00

RANK ATHLETE YR SCHOOL CONVERSION ENTRY TIME SEED TIME NOTES

==== ==================== === ================= ============ =========== =========== ========================================

1 Jason Donald JR Western St. 8:53.70h 8:53.94 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

2 Philip McPherson JR Western St. 8:57.80h 8:58.04 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

3 Jason Walker SR Humboldt St. 8:58.62 8:58.62 03/29 Stanford

4 Jose Merino SR Adams State Alt. Adj A8:58.85 8:58.85 05/04 (Alt-24.81) RMAC

5 Lutz Braun SR Cal Poly 9:00.60h 9:00.84 03/09 CSU Fullerton

6 Josh Merrick FR Adams State 9:06.20h 9:06.44 04/19 Mt SAC Relays

7 Nick Branen SO Abilene Chr. 9:08.49 9:08.49 03/29 Stanford

8 Tomasz Baginski JR Lewis Univ. 9:11.36 9:11.36 03/30 Raleigh Relays

9 Matt Rainwater JR Cal Poly 9:11.41 9:11.41 03/29 Fresno, CA

10 Joey Byrne JR S.Indiana 9:13.42 9:13.42 04/11 Knoxville, TN

11 Alex Daniels SO UC Davis 9:14.30 9:14.30 03/30 Stanford

12 Brian McQueary JR Truman State 9:14.90h 9:15.14 03/30 Kirksville, MO

13 David Scharff SR Harding 9:15.24 9:15.24 04/13 Fayetteville, AK

14 Christopher Trill SO Millersville 9:15.63 9:15.63 05/11 PSAC

15 Augustana Trapp SR Augustana 9:15.70 9:15.70 03/30 Stanford

16 Magnus Holmstrom JR Mo. Southern 9:16.48 9:16.48 04/13 Fayetteville, AK

17 Nat Wibberly SR Edinboro 9:17.35 9:17.35 05/10 PSAC

18 Mark Thurner JR S.Indiana 9:18.26 9:18.26 05/04 Butler

19 Lane Rutland SR Angelo State 9:18.42 9:18.42 05/08 College Station, TX

20 Steve Eles JR L. Superior 9:20.71 9:20.71 05/11 Indianapolis, IN

21 Kelly Christianson FR Western St. 9:20.88 9:20.88 05/10 Stanford

22 Jeff Rumsey JR S.Indiana 9:21.52 9:21.52 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

23 Julian Nahan JR UC San Diego 9:22.33 9:22.33 04/19 Pomona-Pitzer

24 Dave Pressgrove SR Hillsdale 9:23.25 9:23.25 04/26 Hillsdale, MI

25 Brett Carroll JR Minn-Duluth 9:23.66 9:23.66 05/03 St Paul, MN

26 Joe Soehnlen SO Ashland 9:24.44 9:24.44 04/20 Slippery Rock, PA

27 Kevin Alliette JR Umass-Lowell 9:24.65 9:24.65 03/23 San Diego CA

28 Steve Larson SO Hillsdale 9:24.77 9:24.77 05/03 GLIAC

800 METER RUN

Matt Groose Jr Wisconsin Oshkosh 1:48.71 5/10 Illini Classic

David Juiliano Sr ClaremontMuddScripps 1:50.14 5/11 Claremont Classic

Mike Houston Sr Pacific Lutheran 1:50.91 5/11 Ken Foreman Invita

Rich Hite Jr Emory University 1:50.99 5/11 Orange and Purple

Ryan Kleimenhagen So Wisconsin Platteville 1:51.30 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Josh Zobenica Jr Lynchburg College 1:51.39 5/13 Jim Tuppeny Twilig

======================= Automatic qualifer 1:51.40

Tony Rizzo Sr North Central College 1:51.45 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Dax Christofferson Sr Wheaton College (Ill) 1:51.68 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Ben Treptow Sr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 1:51.88 5/17 Midwest Championsh

Luke Alexander Sr Nebraska Wesleyan 1:52.05 5/17 Midwest Championsh

10

Kris Enwright Jr St. Lawrence 1:52.12 04/19 SLU Twilight Meet

Mike Baker Jr Hamline University 1:52.15 5/10 MIAC Championships

======================= Last 2001 qualifier 1:52.17

Tim Jackson Sr Lincoln University 1:52.28 5/7 Princeton Last Chan

will Brownback Sr Widener University 1:52.33 5/13 Villanova Tuppeny

Paul Crumrine Jr North Central College 1:52.44 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Tom McDonald Jr Wisconsin Whitewater 1:52.45 5/17 Midwest All Star O

Brian Roesler So Willamette University 1:52.4 04/13 Oregon Track Club

Jim Ravener Jr Ithaca College 1:52.84 5/4 NYSCTC Outdoor Cham

Peter Rook Sr Haverford College 1:52.84 4/13 Greyhound Invitati

Josh Hildebrand Sr Luther College 1:52.94 5/15 St. Thomas NCAA Qu

20

======================= Provisional qualifier 1:53.00

20 entrants

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------100 | 200 | 400 | 800 | 1500 | 5000 | 10000 | 110H | 400H | STEEP

4X100 | 4X400 | LJ | TJ | SP | DT | HT | JT | HJ | PV

DEC | Top--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1500 METER RUN

Peter Rook Sr Haverford College 3:46.29 4/20 Widener Invitation

David Juiliano Sr ClaremontMuddScripps 3:48.39 4/19 Pomona-Pitzer Invi

Ryan Bak Jr Trinity College (Ct) 3:48.99 4/12 Sea Ray Relays

Matt Groose Jr Wisconsin Oshkosh 3:49.89 4/13 Cardinal Classic

Ryan Kleimenhagen So Wisconsin Platteville 3:50.29 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Anthony Gallo Sr Geneseo S U N Y 3:50.48 5/4 NYSCYC Championship

Sean Williams Jr Eastern Oregon 3:50.94 4/27 Univ of Oregon Inv

Rich Maleniak Sr Wisconsin Eau Claire 3:51.25 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

======================= Automatic qualifer 3:51.40

Kris Enwright Jr St. Lawrence 3:51.59 05/04 NYSCTC Championsh

Mark Miller Jr Keene State College 3:52.01 4/20 Solomon Husky Invi

10

Tony Rizzo Sr North Central College 3:52.02 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

J B Haglund Sr Haverford College 3:52.19 4/20 Widener Invitation

Hendrik Kok So Calvin College 3:52.25 4/25-7 Gina Relays

Travis Deutman Sr Washington (Missouri) 3:52.41 5/4 Butler Twilight

Nick Ricco Jr College of New Jersey 3:52.73 5/15 Seamus McElliot In

Patrick Sullivan So University Of Chicago 3:52.97 5/10 Leo Schnur Invitat

Joel Klooster Jr Calvin College 3:52.97 4/10 Hope/Olivet Duel

Brian Anderson So Mass Inst Technology 3:53.04 5/4 NE Div. III Champ.

Matt Doumaux Jr Widener University 3:53.19 4/20 Widener Invitation

George McCleary Sr Emory University 3:53.20 5/17 Georgia Tech

20

======================= Last 2001 qualifier 3:53.86

Jesse Baumann Jr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 3:53.99 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Jim McLaughlin Sr Nebraska Wesleyan 3:54.12 5/10 Leo Schnur

Dave Bridgewater Fr Keene State College 3:54.30 5/10-11 New England Cha

Matt Baum Jr North Central College 3:54.35 4/13 Cardinal Classic

John Mathews Jr St. John's (Minn) 3:54.53 5/14 Saint Thomas Quali

Dave Terry Jr Eastern Oregon 3:54.56 4/27 Univ of Oregon Inv

Jhalister Corona Sr Whittier College 3:54.85 3/30 CA/NV Championship

Jason Maus Sr Heidelberg College 3:55.17 5/11 OAC Championships

Matt Winkler So Williams College 3:55.22 5/10-11 All New England

Pat Egelus So Eastern Oregon 3:55.38 4/27 Univ of Oregon Inv

30

Peter Armstrong Sr Calvin College 3:55.44 5/11 Bulldog Qualifier

Greg Bielecki Jr Haverford College 3:55.62 5/15 McElligott Invitat

Sean Nolan Jr Mass Inst Technology 3:55.64 5/4 NE Div. III Champ.

Bryan Donald Jr Carleton College 3:55.66 5/18 Jim Bush Twilight

Aaron Mack So Otterbein College 3:55.82 5/11 OAC Championships

Ryan Reed Sr Pacific Lutheran 3:55.85 5/11 Ken Foreman Invita

======================= Provisional qualifier 3:56.00

36 entrants

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------100 | 200 | 400 | 800 | 1500 | 5000 | 10000 | 110H | 400H | STEEP

4X100 | 4X400 | LJ | TJ | SP | DT | HT | JT | HJ | PV

DEC | Top--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MILE RUN*

======================= Automatic qualifer 4:09.90

======================= Provisional qualifier 4:14.80

0 entrants

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------100 | 200 | 400 | 800 | 1500 | 5000 | 10000 | 110H | 400H | STEEP

4X100 | 4X400 | LJ | TJ | SP | DT | HT | JT | HJ | PV

DEC | Top--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5000 METER RUN

Nick Ricco Jr College of New Jersey 14:13.41 4/25-27 Penn Relays

Ryan Bak Jr Trinity College (Ct) 14:19.42 4/25 Penn Relays

J B Haglund Sr Haverford College 14:19.57 4/25 Penn Relays

Joel Klooster Jr Calvin College 14:25.51 4/19 Twilight Invitatio

Anthony Gallo Sr Geneseo S U N Y 14:27.19 4/25 Penn Relays

Sean Williams Jr Eastern Oregon 14:28.50 3/29 Stanford Invite

Pat Frascone Sr Wisconsin Whitewater 14:30.34 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Hendrik Kok So Calvin College 14:31.01 5/11 Butler Qualifier

Mark Lalonde Fr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 14:32.57 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Dan Hoekstra Sr Calvin College 14:32.63 4/19 Twilight Invitatio

10

Eric Fruth Sr De Pauw University 14:34.84 5/4 Butler Twilight

======================= Automatic qualifer 14:35.00

Jerome Tharaud Sr University Of Chicago 14:35.04 5/10 Leo Schnur Invitat

Jacob Stout So Willamette University 14:35.8 04/05 Willamette Distan

Levi Ashley Fr Nebraska Wesleyan 14:36.12 5/10 Leo Schnur

David Juiliano Sr ClaremontMuddScripps 14:36.58 3/9 Ben Brown Invite

Jay Wells Sr Plattsburgh S U N Y 14:38.05 4/25 Penn Relays

Justin Pfruender Sr Calvin College 14:38.37 4/19 Twilight Invitatio

Neil Weare Sr Lewis & Clark College 14:39.84 4/19 Pomona-Pitzer Inv

Sean Nolan Jr Mass Inst Technology 14:41.29 5/10 neicaaa championsh

Brian Maat Fr Calvin College 14:42.2 4/6 Laker Relays

20

Riley Kehoe Jr Wisconsin Whitewater 14:43.23 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Nick Boehlke Fr Wisconsin Oshkosh 14:43.52 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Ian Bartonicek Jr Coast Guard Academy 14:43.81 5/10 All New England Ch

Mark Miller Jr Keene State College 14:45.59 5/4 New England Div.III

Tom Kreger Jr Hamline University 14:46.57 4/13 Lee Krough Invitat

Wes Reutiman Sr Williams College 14:47.49 5/10-11 All New England

Will Berriel Jr ClaremontMuddScripps 14:47.57 5/11 Claremont Classic

Patrick Vardaro Jr Bowdoin College 14:49.55 5/4 New England D3

Brendan Callahan Jr College of Wooster 14:50.24 3/22 Florida State Rela

Beau Meredith So Greenville College 14:50.44 4/6 Wash University Inv

30

Adrian Cline So College of New Jersey 14:50.7 3/24 Quaker Invitaional

Adam Booth So Grinnell College 14:51.11 4/26 Simpson Twilight

Dustin Scott Jr Elizabethtown College 14:51.8 4/19 Widener Invitation

Matt Sinclair Jr Christopher Newport 14:52.24 004/05 Colonial Relays

Tom Haxton So University Of Chicago 14:53.04 5/10 Leo Schnur Invitat

Dave Bridgewater Fr Keene State College 14:53.38 4/25 Penn Relays

Rich Maleniak Sr Wisconsin Eau Claire 14:53.47 04/06 Washington Univer

Wes Reutimann Sr Williams College 14:53.67 5/4 DIII New Englands

Scott McCaffery Jr College of New Jersey 14:54.3 3/24 Quaker Invitaional

Eamon McKenna Jr Wisconsin Oshkosh 14:54.75 5/3/4 WIAC Championship

40

Tim Riley Jr Eastern Oregon 14:55.09 3/29 Stanford Invite

======================= Last 2001 qualifier 14:55.36

Tyson Keith Jr Wartburg College 14:56.32 4/26 simpson twilight

Noah Lawrence Sr Grinnell College 14:57.40 3/22 florida state rela

Graham Wellman Fr De Pauw University 14:57.65 5/4 Butler Twilight

======================= Provisional qualifier 14:58.00

44 entrants

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------100 | 200 | 400 | 800 | 1500 | 5000 | 10000 | 110H | 400H | STEEP

4X100 | 4X400 | LJ | TJ | SP | DT | HT | JT | HJ | PV

DEC | Top--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10000 METER RUN

Joel Klooster Jr Calvin College 29:42.79 4/25-7 Gina Relays

J B Haglund Sr Haverford College 29:53.02 3/29 Stanford Invitatio

Dan Hoekstra Sr Calvin College 30:19.83 4/25-7 Gina Relays

Tom Kreger Jr Hamline University 30:35.00 4/25 Drake Relays

Jim Emord Jr Trinity College (Ct) 30:43.81 4/25 Penn Relays

Eamon McKenna Jr Wisconsin Oshkosh 30:44.96 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Josh Ferenc So Keene State College 30:46.71 4/25 Penn Relays

Brian Preus Jr Univ of St. Thomas 30:46.89 4/27 Javelina Relays

Nick Boehlke Fr Wisconsin Oshkosh 30:47.60 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Eric Fruth Sr De Pauw University 30:47.66 3/30 Gerald England Inv

10

Tyson Keith Jr Wartburg College 30:47.76 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Tim Nelson So North Central College 30:48.40 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Jay Wells Sr Plattsburgh S U N Y 30:49.98 5/10 Albany Spring Clas

======================= Automatic qualifer 30:50.00

Pat Frascone Sr Wisconsin Whitewater 30:50.69 4/6 Washington Universi

Michael Schmitz Sr Wisconsin Platteville 30:52.10 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Pat MacDonald Sr Washington (Missouri) 30:53.37 5/17 Midwest intercolle

Mark Lalonde Fr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 30:53.73 4/13 Cardinal Classic

Brian Maat Fr Calvin College 30:54.40 4/25-7 Gina Relays

Tom Haxton So University Of Chicago 30:55.04 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Brendan Callahan Jr College of Wooster 30:56.99 5/3 NCAC CHAMPIONSHIPS

20

Matt Hoelle So Washington (Missouri) 31:04.86 5/4 Butler Twilight

James Larson Sr Wisconsin Eau Claire 31:05.99 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Dave Huber Jr Wisconsin Stout 31:07.64 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Jason Parks So Anderson (Indiana) 31:08.30 4/13 Little State Champ

Marcus Murphy So Loras College 31:09.70 3/23 Loras/Luther Dual

Pat Rizzo Fr North Central College 31:09.88 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Brandon Rowe So Haverford College 31:10.79 5/4 Centennialm Confere

Nate Gibson Jr Heidelberg College 31:12.15 4/26 Hillsdale Gina Rel

Nick Rector Jr Nebraska Wesleyan 31:14.16 5/10 Leo Schnur

Matt Hooley So Carleton College 31:14.7 04/20 Carleton Relays

30

David Haagsma So Calvin College 31:16.89 5/17 Baldwin-Wallace Co

Dan Heinz Sr Haverford College 31:21.45 5/4 Centennialm Confere

Nathan Brigham Fr Tufts University 31:23.27 5/10 NEIAA's

======================= Last 2001 qualifier 31:23.35

Matt Migonis Jr St. Lawrence 31:24.32 3/30 Susquehanna Invita

Randy Bill So Augustana (Illinois) 31:25.64 5/3&4 CCIW conference

Noah Lawrence Sr Grinnell College 31:26.79 4/25 drake relays

Aristides Cruz Sr Tufts University 31:26.85 04/27 NESCAC Conference

Nick Maddox Sr Univ of St. Thomas 31:27.39 3/23 Loras Dual

Tim Callinan Sr Widener University 31:27.1 4/5 Sam Howell Invitati

Dan Sutton Jr Wisconsin La Crosse 31:27.79 5/3-4 WIAC Championship

40

Justin Pfruender Sr Calvin College 31:28.65 3/28 Grand Rapids Open

Ben Hildebrand Jr Kenyon College 31:30.73 5/3 NCAC CHAMPIONSHIPS

Cary Snyder Sr Kenyon College 31:31.46 5/3 NCAC CHAMPIONSHIPS

Kelly Fulton Fr St. Olaf College 31:32.22 5/10-11 MIAC Champioshi

Sean Brenchman So Univ of St. Thomas 31:34.53 5/11 MIAC Championships

Nick Madsen Fr Wisconsin La Crosse 31:35.55 5/3-4 WIAC Championship

Joe Pontrelli Jr Elmhurst College 31:35.97 5/3-4 CCIW Championship

Jared Smit Sr Wabash College 31:36.02 3/30 GE/Indianapolis In

Tim Willcox Sr Wisconsin Platteville 31:36.38 4/25 Drake Relays

Andy Enright Fr North Central College 31:36.51 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

50

Brock Lehman Sr Wartburg College 31:36.69 5/10-11 IIAC Outdoor Ch

Matt Edwards So Calvin College 31:37.90 4/25-7 Gina Relays

======================= Provisional qualifier 31:39.00

52 entrants

3000M STEEPLECHASE

J B Haglund Sr Haverford College 8:56.9 5/4 Centennialm Confere

Justin Easter Jr Bates College 9:02.70 5/17 IC4A'a

Jacob Stout So Willamette University 9:05.46 5/11 Ken Foreman Invite

Simon Flory So De Pauw University 9:07.45 5/17 Butler Last Chance

Joe Dunham Sr Keene State College 9:07.53 5/10-11 New England Cha

======================= Automatic qualifer 9:08.40

Karl Remsen Jr Williams College 9:08.88 5/10-11 All New England

Jeremy Borling Sr North Central College 9:08.92 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Justin Pfruender Sr Calvin College 9:09.20 5/2-3 MIAA Championship

Marty Coppola Sr College of Wooster 9:09.27 5/17 B-W Twilight Invit

Luis Ibarra Sr Whittier College 9:10.0 5/11 Claremont Classic

10

Ryan Reed Sr Pacific Lutheran 9:10.39 4/26 Northwest Conferen

David Juiliano Sr ClaremontMuddScripps 9:12.19 3/2 Redlands/Whittier d

Eric Fisher Jr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 9:12.33 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Jesse Lalonde Sr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 9:12.49 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Jimmy Steinemann Sr Haverford College 9:12.3 5/4 Centennialm Confere

Joe Hughes Jr Wartburg College 9:12.4 5/17 Midwest Intercolle

Jerome Tharaud Sr University Of Chicago 9:13.37 05/04 Butler Twilight M

Ben Hildebrand Jr Kenyon College 9:13.97 5/17 BW Twilight

Robbie Pieper Sr Wisconsin Stevens Pt 9:13.99 5/10 Leo Schnur Open

Bryan Less Jr Mount Union College 9:14.81 5/17 BW Twilight Meet

20

Pat Gaynor Sr Wisconsin Whitewater 9:14.6 5/17 Midwest All Star O

Scott Overby Fr Willamette University 9:15.98 5/11 Ken Foreman Invite

Michael Baird Jr Kenyon College 9:16.15 4/20 All-Ohio

Brendon Moody Jr Heidelberg College 9:16.36 5/17 BW Twilight Invita

Willie Stroever Sr Haverford College 9:16.2 5/4 Centennialm Confere

Justin Lutz Sr Worcester Poly Inst 9:18.12 5/17 ECAC Championships

P J Lantzy Jr Wisconsin La Crosse 9:18.15 5/3-4 WIAC Championship

Matt Sicilia Sr Calvin College 9:18.18 5/17 Baldwin-Wallace Co

======================= Last 2001 qualifier 9:18.26

Adam Broten Sr Carroll College (Wi) 9:18.2 5/17 Midwest Championsh

Jason Malmassari Sr Elmhurst College 9:21.40 5/11 Bulldog Qualifier

30

Nick Johnson Fr Augustana (Illinois) 9:21.5 5/17 Twilight Qualifier

Josh Ferenc So Keene State College 9:22.23 5/10-11 New England Cha

Darius Viet So Washington (Missouri) 9:22.89 5/4 Butler Twilight

Brendan Callahan Jr College of Wooster 9:23.25 3/30 Wooster Invitation

Jason Casey So Geneseo S U N Y 9:23.32 5/4 NYSCYC Championship

Ben Schmeckpeper Fr Mass Inst Technology 9:24.12 5/10 neicaaa championsh

Tyson Oberndorfer Sr Haverford College 9:24.81 4/20 Widener Invitation

======================= Provisional qualifier 9:25.00

37 entrants

Check out the 10k lists. Whoever made the comparison of the 30th place guys, you're only going back that far because if you looked at the 23rd placed guy in Div II you'd see that he's at 30:35, the same time as the 4th ranked in Div III.

Now that is a huge freakin difference.

All sucks compared to DI

that was me and I stand by it, here's why, at Nationals in cross, you run 200+ kids, not 46 (23 and 23) I conceded up-front superiority to D2, but read my post again and feel more humble.

You are very correct that age and accumulated miles do count for quite a bit. But, the original question was concerning a comparison between DII and DIII. That's it, no more no less. DIII has the same rules regarding eligibility and there have been some "aged" runners such as Gary Wasserman from Nebraska Wesleyan. Sure, you see more of that sort of thing at DII, which I suspect is due to the availability of scholarship $ and an overall lower cost of attendance than the majority of DIII schools (WIAC being the big exception to that). I think we can get too hung up on the age or the international thing. There are plenty of great performances by Americans in DII and DIII. For instance, one contender in the DII race this year is most likely going to be Nick Cordes from Ashland. He's a 5th year senior who will probably be able to run with most anybody that Abilene or Western throws out there and is probably no older than 23.

DI wrote:

All sucks compared to DI

d-1 d-1 d-1 blah blah blah... don't ever lose to a d-2 or d-3 guy then or you suck

D1 is better than D2. No comparison.

D2 is better than D3. No comparison.

Every once in a while you'll have an individual or a team who could compete at a higher level, but they're the exception, not the rule. Who cares though, I wish people would stop feeling insecure.

Goodrunningisgoodrunningisgoodrunningisgoodrunning.

not insecure. just irritated at the smugness and arrogance of certain individuals. the comment earlier that all sucks compared to d-1 is both smug and ignorant. of course the depth and ability level as a whole are better at the d-1 level. there will always be comparisons made though because when everyone lines up, the division you're in is insignificant. just because you're D1 doesn't make you a good runner. just because you're D2 or D3 doesn't make you less of a runner. because of course: good running IS good running

Ex D2 runner wrote:

D1 is better than D2. No comparison.

D2 is better than D3. No comparison.

Every once in a while you'll have an individual or a team who could compete at a higher level, but they're the exception, not the rule. Who cares though, I wish people would stop feeling insecure.

Goodrunningisgoodrunningisgoodrunningisgoodrunning.