NCAA Rules on Running Unattached

I don't believe that's the rule. It can be a scored event with open/unattached runners. The runners will just not be affiliated with a team and will not be counted in the scoring.

I believe that as long as she didn't ride down with the team, eat with the team or run under the team name, she should be okay. With her being on such a prominent program, I could see some teams raising hell to keep her out of competition though. Just get the results out and show the compliance coordinator at NC State that she was in fact unattached and she should be okay. Sports information should have those results if you can't get a hold of them. We ran into the same problem with one of our guys this year. Unfortunately, the host school listed our guy as running for us when he didn't and now he shit out of luck probably.

"Wondering" is correct. If the race she was in was team scored then she uses a season of eligibility whether she was unattached, or not. How can a college coach not be aware of that? Some of you may remember the St. John's men's team several years back? I think Graff was one of the guys on the team that got screwed because their coach wasn't aware of that rule.

Now, if she ran an "open" race that was separate from the scored race then she would be fine.

Wondering is definitely correct. If she ran in the race that was team scored, she loses a year of eligibility regardless if she paid her own way or not. You can only compete unattached and not lose a year of eligibility if the race is an Open race and is NOT team scored. If there is a team score from the race you ran in, you lose the redshirt. The NC State girl wasted her time because that is a year of eligibility she used for that one race. Great job Geiger! Way to know the rules!

I haev no clue about the NC State situation, but I think one of the main points about the St John's thing was that the guys traveled with the team using school transportation to get to the meets so that is what made them part of the team.

my thought was that the athlete could run in these races, but only a severely restricted amount or else she or he loses the redshirt. I guess the rules are different for D1 as opposed to D3. It is very sad when a coach's failure to make him or herself fully aware of the rules governing their respective sport, results in an athlete being punished like in this case.

The NC State athlete should appeal that. Especially if the race was a meaningless dual meet or low key invite. I can see losing the redshirt if she competed in an end of the season conference championship or something.

If nothing is changed, the NCAA should rewrite that rule to allow some sort of leeway for brainless coaches and the athletes who suffer as a result of the sanscortex.

goodday and godspeed

As this situation (competing unattached) is mine exactly, (I am not on a college team, but hope to be) I bothered to go to the NCAA website and look up the rules. Here are some I think that apply:

17.7.8.1 Noncollegiate, Amateur Competition

17.7.8.1.1 During Academic Year

A student-athlete in the sport of cross country who participates during the academic year as a member of any outside cross country team in any noncollegiate, amateur competition (e.g., team invitational meet, exhibition meets or other activity) except while representing the institution in intercollegiate cross country competition shall be ineligible for intercollegiate cross country competition for the remainder of the year and for the next academic year (see Bylaw 14.7.3 for exceptions and waivers). (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91, 1/16/93)

Associated Enforcement Cases Major Cases: 0

and then here:

http://www.ncaa.org/news/2001/20011008/meminfo/3821n17.html

this is more specific to the idea at hand. But it still does not bring to the point, what does not count as an "open" competition. If the meet is scored, is it automtically considered to disqualify. Many places run open/pro/unattached athletes in the same races as the intercollegiate athletes. The teams could still be scored, but does this count? The situtation makes sense in dual meet or conference meet, but what about in invitationals, they declare a team champion, but anyone can enter; just pay the entrance fee.

This is the definition that is given.

"In order for a competition to be considered an "open" event, the competition must be open to noncollegiate competitors and must be organized, publicized and operated as an event that is open to individuals other than collegiate competitors."

So what would qualify it to be as such. Would just the word "invitational" in the title count? To me that means that everyone is invited (as people have come and run pretty slow at invitationals) to compete. What would qualify as such. Would the meet have to run seperate races?

Just wondering on that last point. But in the situation listed, I (as a person reading rules), see nothing wrong, unless they travelled down there with the team, etc.

The first rule is not the one that matters. The first rule covers individuals that run for an outside club or organization during the school year. The rule you provided a link to is the one that matters. It covers individuals running unattached in collegiate events to save a redshirt year. The race the NC State girl competed in was the Great American Invitational last fall. It was a huge team scored event and she ran in the same race as the team did (the scored race). According to NCAA rules, she loses a year of eligibility. There is no appeal because the NCAA has taken the stance that ignorance of the rules is NOT a valid excuse.

Actually, if you read the text, as long as she did not take any money from the school for expenses or use University facilities or equiptment, then she is fine, even if the team scored in the event. It all comes down to wether or not she paid her own expenses and used her own equiptment and clothes. Since the meet was in NC anyway, she probably did not even need to stay in a hotel and could have driven there by herself.

FROM THE NCAA WEBSITE:

"However, a student-athlete seeking to redshirt or an ineligible student-athlete (for example, partial qualifier or nonqualifier serving a year-in-residence) may compete as an individual in an "open" event involving collegiate and noncollegiate competitors without using a season of competition (including an "open" event in which the collegiate competitors receive expenses from and/or score points for their respective institutions), provided the student-athlete represents only himself or herself, pays all of his or her own travel and competition expenses, does not wear any institutional uniforms or use any institutional equipment and does not score points for the institution."

i guess then my question would be, what counts as an "open" meet. When any person that really wants to can compete in 'most' collegiate invitationals, maybe not the GACCF one (it had a closed registratiion?). The rule doesn't say that just because the meet was scored that it automatically counts against the person (at least that is how I read the info). So, at least, without being able to read the minds of the people enforcing/interpreting the rule.

So, to seperate the question that I have:

What meets fit the catagory?...

Just because it is scored?

Depending on how the meet was run (i.e. the publicized, allowed entries etc.) I guess that would be why.

So now the key questions (to which I don't know the answers) are

1.) whether this "Great American" thingy had other open competitors or was college only, and

2.) who paid her expenses for it?

If it is team scored it is not an open event. Team scoring eliminates it from being an open event. If you read further it states:

For example, if five institutions competed in an invitational cross country meet or swim meet that was open only to those institutions, the competition would not be considered an "open" event. If a redshirt student-athlete or an ineligible student-athlete from any of the five participating institutions were permitted to compete in the meet (even as an "unattached" participant not scoring points for his or her institution), the student-athlete would be considered to have engaged in intercollegiate competition under Bylaw 14.02.6 and would be charged with the use of a season of competition. In addition, if the student-athlete were an ineligible partial qualifier or nonqualifier, the student-athlete would be considered to have engaged in intercollegiate competition in violation of NCAA rules.

It was a team scored event and the girl ran unattached. It is actually common knowledge for many coaches of this rule. Geiger either is ignorant of the rules or he does not care about the rules. I would be interested to see if any of his other athletes over the years have violated the rule also!

Trackgeek,

I'm in the same situation as you. What year are you and at what school?

To further explain the definition of a "closed" meet as opposed to an "open" meet: A meet like the Great American is "open" to any school that wants to be a part of it by paying the entry fee ( or having the entry fee paid by the host institution). It is nt "open" to any school that just wants to show up that day and run. It is only open to the schools that go through the normal entry process, turn in an entry form and pay the entry fee. It is then scored with those teams that were "invited" or those teams that went through the proper entry proceedures. I know that these are the rules because I had an athlete that went through it. Luckily, we found out a week after the meet and saved the rest of the year and she ran well and redshirted the next year.

If it is team scored, it is automatically NOT an Open race. Period. NC State's compliance director could call and get the same explanation I received.

Arkansas and Stanford run their freshmen (and others) at meets throughout the year. I guess they are breaking rules. Just look at Missouri Southern, Oklahoma State and Stanford results. You'll see a lot of "unattached" guys.

have you ever considered the possibility of using a system whereby an open meet is run, with scoring those on teams, and not scoring those not. that kind of meet is eligible for unattached redshirts.

Hey au contraire,

No shit, Sherlock. What do you think they are talking about? Obviously you don't score the people that are unattached.

Another D1 Coach,

It seems to be that you are speaking from experience. But if any unattached or post-collegiate shows up and is able to enter the race, would that not be an "open" meet? The example of the five teams, said that it was closed to competition from anyone else. Scoring a meet with post-collegiates in it happens all of the time.

Kartlite,

I am a sophomore at BYU (taking a two year break for a mission).