Which college programs do double threshold?

Duke

My old one at High Point. Teams ass. No improvements/ half people get injured.

Saint Joes

I’ve seen lots of colleges absolutely butcher it this summer because the coaches/athletes think threshold ought to be 10-20 seconds per mile slower than XC 5k race pace..

One of the local colleges in my state whom I know a lot of the teammembers had a fun first week of the season, where I believe they ran a 10 mile “MP tempo” where all of their guys went out at 5:15-5:20 pace, most eventually fell off to 6:00+ pace, took one recovery day, had a “double threshold” day where all of the athletes averaged 4:55-5:25 pace for a 4 mile tempo, and then did 8x800m in 2:25-2:40 later that day, took another rest day and then raced on a flat 5k course and the results were great. One guy broke 15:00, and I think 3-4 guys broke 16:00. About a 20 guy roster.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the punchline here is that Jakob himself will often do his double threshold days slower than this. This school is just one example too. I think the double threshold trend is gonna absolutely ruin some of the Strava warrior or high ego programs out there.

^ this. It’s sad yet hilarious seeing all these Strava copy-cats ruin their season in august and September.

There are guys out here with a 29:50 10k PR doing “threshold” work at their 10K PR pace, and call it “easy”.

There are college teams having their guys do their double threshold workouts just slower than their 10k pace, some even at altitude, it’s gonna be hilarious watching how their race results are so much slower than their “killer double-t workouts”.

The problem with the NCAA system being a copycat system is that coaches don’t know how to properly monitor their athletes and athletes love to be workout heroes, and go faster than their actual threshold because they are misinformed.

The teams that train smart and based off of actual science will continue to prosper. The teams that train off of other teams strava’s and encourage their teammates to “pack run” the old traditional way with these workouts will fold over 10k.

20*400@10k pace with 60s rest feels pretty easy. That is the fast/short end of threshold. Start trying to do 10min runs at that pace and it gets hard pretty quick.

If they race an early season 5k as a rust buster on grass and then work out on the track, I can see how threshold workouts would end up 10-20 seconds slower than their 5k pace.

You're right in that double threshold really means "decreasing intensity a moderate amount in order to increase volume by a lot". For one thing the coach seems to be taking a normal schedule and just reducing the number of rest days, which sounds more like the 1990s method of training. Given the inconsistent pacing on the 10 mile tempo, I can only assume the coach would be writing bad workouts regardless. Misunderstanding double threshold is just taking a bad training plan and making it even worse

I know someone whose true threshold pace (confirmed through lactate testing and initially estimated based off 3k/5k pace) was his 6k XC pace. He just couldn’t run well on even tiny hills and grass. I think he must have had horrible lactate processing abilities for slight increases over threshold (as he’d fall off on even 15 foot hills on road tempos) but had a great vo2 max

Sean Carlson at Tennessee has revolutionized double threshold by doing the same volume in a typical double threshold day but in a single session. He’s calling it . . . single threshold!

I think this coach is most definitely the type that hops from trend to trend, he quite literally workout for workout copied BYU last year. A good friend of mine told me that he would see the BYU guys do their workout on Strava and a week later that would be the teams workout 4/5 times. The problem is that the nuance of these workouts are messed up working with athletes at a different fitness/talent level, while still expecting a similar performance and outcome.

Its just very interesting to me that coaches can bull crap their way to such a high level. Apparently all it takes to become a D1 coach is to watch 2-3 milesplit workout wednesdays and to check letsrun every few days.

This was an interesting read, fantastic engine with a horrible economy it would seem. Mechanics get pretty darn important as terrain starts to vary.

I have a HS kid I’m helping to coach who is a HUGE talent, I think he will be breaking every school record 800m to 5k this track season, but he overstrides and heel strikes pretty bad right now, along with leaning backwards. We had him run a 15:28 track time trial for a full 5k and he’s been coming out with me on workouts like 4x2 miles in 11:00-11:20 with 2:00 jog rest and he’s had no problem, but on XC courses he’s paying the price and only running 16:30-17:00 for 3 miles.

I agree that many highschoolers and collegiates take their tempos way way way harder than they need to. If your 10 mile tempo is “marathon pace” and you crap the bed 5 miles in and bleed pace until you’re done, you just ran 10k pace and burnt out, congrats. 10 miles at marathon pace should be pretty unchallenging unless you’re fatigued, and even if you’re tired from volume it should still be a super manageable workout.

I think lots of athletes and coaches don’t understand that you want to do ideally the BARE MINIMUM to achieve the desired adaptation. If your LT2 zone puts you at 5:35-5:55 pace, you should keep it closer to 5:55, not push to 5:18 and then pat yourself on the back for racing your 3 mile tempo. Lots of people have the mindset that the bare minimum is bad, because hard work = success, but it’s so much more nuanced than that.

Ingebrigstens are so successful with their training because they are doing the minimum to get adaptations, over and over and over again. You aren’t gonna get burnout or overtraining syndrome doing workouts as “easy” as Jakob, but you will still be gaining the same Vo2Max, lactate threshold, and muscular/bone strength benefits that the one idiot that brings himself to 90-100% exertion 3 times a week, (now 5 times a week thanks to double threshold) gets as close as he can to threshold on “easy days” and probably gets injured 2 times a year and seriously thinks about quitting once every 1-2 months gets.

I have heard of a number of teams implementing one double threshold day per week. It would be extremely hard to do the full Jakob system with an NCAA team. The time limits the NCAA has in place are not helpful and the athletes would need to be extremely disciplined to not over run sessions on their own. Add classes, maybe a part time jobs, weather (teams in the south especially right now)

Everything comes and goes. I ran at a top 10 program 10-15 years ago and we did a Cavona “special block” inspired day once a week. Tuesday’s were morning 5 tempo, afternoons were 10x300m, repeated weekly for almost an entire semester. I know a number of other top programs were also messing around with this. It was spring semester. Didn’t work in the fall, too hot for afternoon workouts in August and Sept. This might be why Tennessee does one session not two

Not necessarily double threshold but the program I assist with does double workout days often. It is usually a 10-12x1 minute hill workout in the morning and then some kind of threshold work in the afternoon (4x2k), 8 mile tempo etc. Team has stayed healthy and is responding well to the stimulus. I do think it’s an approach programs are likely to follow more and more.

Slightly off topic, but its very hard to heel strike/overstride going uphill. This might be why your guy has issues, as the hill forces him to change his gait into something he isn't used too. Training more on the XC course and hills that challenge him might be his best hope.

I think it works very well. i think it is the smartest way to train.

The real high level programs are experimenting with triple t lately… expect some big surprises as this approach gets a bit more traction. We are living in exciting times!

Interesting approach. It always seemed to me that you need to work more to improve results, but you say that doing the minimum is enough.

Correct they are slower. The key to the double workout and the higher volume is doing it at the right pace which is slower and less intensity. But also does it make sense for college kids who have 8am and all day classes to get up at 5am for a tempo run or cruise intervals to come back late afternoon or evening to do the same thing again. Are they getting enough rest to recover and to be able to focus on their school work? When I coached high school kids I didn't have them double because I think the rest was more important for them developing bodies still especially. I think in college cause you spend less time in the class room, theres no 45 minute bus ride etc that doubling makes more sense if their mileage requires it based on their past history.

Sounds like you were hurt or didn't improve. I know other runners there who say they are competitive and want to compete on a bigger stage. Double Threshold is proving to be quite the positive trend among programs.