I agree with all of this, especially your last sentence. I can appreciate good running performances, but I have very little admiration of or respect for able-bodied but perpetually unemployed or grossly underemployed runners who call themselves professionals in a sport like this. It's an incredibly selfish pursuit, made even worse by constant self-promotion. I like seeing Matt doing the dignified work of showing up every day, washing all the pots and pans, mixing the ingredients, providing a good product and service with a smile that makes people happy, and eventually heading home after long hours.
Yep, Sage lost all of my respect after his posts here.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
He's turned into an insecure narcissist. His insistence on 2:16 laughable. Comparing Sage to Matt is a joke. People are still talking about Carpenter in 2023 in very high esteem. No one has talked about Sage in any serious capacity as a runner in the past few years, and very little during his peak years. Instead of accepting his irrelevance as a "pro runner", he continues to post more controversial and trollish content on here to avoid falling into obscurity.
Look at this thread - a couple posts congratulating SJD on his great weekend and little Sage sticks his head in to derail the praise and randomly hint that Carpenter's record is phony, totally out of nowhere. Needs to rehash his (subpar) results and draw attention to himself, again. Does he have an ounce of class or tact whatsoever? Start a new thread FFS b*tching about Carpenter's record and let eggman get some well-deserved praise.
And other posters on here have given lots of context and explanation to why the raw data may not tell the whole story (e.g. why Carpenter never ran close to his record in later years). Very little mention of his other accomplishments as well (e.g. his Leadville 100 course record).
By the way, a big thanks to the "old timers" posting on here giving us nuggets of info that have been lost to time. It's a shame how little written history there is pre-early-2000s and it's really cool to hear from guys that knew Carpenter in his heyday. This is the kind of the stuff that makes LRC amazing despite the high number of trolls like Sage on here.
This post was edited 10 minutes after it was posted.
Yep, Sage lost all of my respect after his posts here.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
He's turned into an insecure narcissist. His insistence on 2:16 laughable. Comparing Sage to Matt is a joke. People are still talking about Carpenter in 2023 in very high esteem. No one has talked about Sage in any serious capacity as a runner in the past few years, and very little during his peak years. Instead of accepting his irrelevance as a "pro runner", he continues to post more controversial and trollish content on here to avoid falling into obscurity.
Look at this thread - a couple posts congratulating SJD on his great weekend and little Sage sticks his head in to derail the praise and randomly hint that Carpenter's record is phony, totally out of nowhere. Needs to rehash his (subpar) results and draw attention to himself, again. Does he have an ounce of class or tact whatsoever? Start a new thread FFS b*tching about Carpenter's record and let eggman get some well-deserved praise.
And other posters on here have given lots of context and explanation to why the raw data may not tell the whole story (e.g. why Carpenter never ran close to his record in later years). Very little mention of his other accomplishments as well (e.g. his Leadville 100 course record).
By the way, a big thanks to the "old timers" posting on here giving us nuggets of info that have been lost to time. It's a shame how little written history there is pre-early-2000s and it's really cool to hear from guys that knew Carpenter in his heyday. This is the kind of the stuff that makes LRC amazing despite the high number of trolls like Sage on here.
I don’t know, sounds like you are a bit of a snowflake. Also, I give credit to Sage for not hiding his identity on here. I’ve watched him for years—he is quite knowledgeable
Yep, Sage lost all of my respect after his posts here.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
He's turned into an insecure narcissist. His insistence on 2:16 laughable. Comparing Sage to Matt is a joke. People are still talking about Carpenter in 2023 in very high esteem. No one has talked about Sage in any serious capacity as a runner in the past few years, and very little during his peak years. Instead of accepting his irrelevance as a "pro runner", he continues to post more controversial and trollish content on here to avoid falling into obscurity.
Look at this thread - a couple posts congratulating SJD on his great weekend and little Sage sticks his head in to derail the praise and randomly hint that Carpenter's record is phony, totally out of nowhere. Needs to rehash his (subpar) results and draw attention to himself, again. Does he have an ounce of class or tact whatsoever? Start a new thread FFS b*tching about Carpenter's record and let eggman get some well-deserved praise.
And other posters on here have given lots of context and explanation to why the raw data may not tell the whole story (e.g. why Carpenter never ran close to his record in later years). Very little mention of his other accomplishments as well (e.g. his Leadville 100 course record).
By the way, a big thanks to the "old timers" posting on here giving us nuggets of info that have been lost to time. It's a shame how little written history there is pre-early-2000s and it's really cool to hear from guys that knew Carpenter in his heyday. This is the kind of the stuff that makes LRC amazing despite the high number of trolls like Sage on here.
Care to share you true identity?
Yeah, I post under my real name here....have been for 15+ years. You have always had it out for me on these threads in the past few months with your criticisms...not sure why....
Anyway, I'm interested in the science of running, analysis and talking about mountain-ultra-trail performances. If you don't like that....well too bad! I will stand by what I write because I post under my real name.
I praised Seth earlier and I also discussed Matt's Leadville 100 CR btw.
If people don't really care about my insight into MUT Running I won't post on here anymore.
The facts and the data all point to Carpenter's 3:16 marathon record at Pikes being basically the biggest outlier in the entire realm of MUT Running established race history relative to all his running performances.... whether you like it or not!
I am not saying that anyone cut the course running Pikes Peak, but you certainly could save some time by doing so.
The race used to be an open course. "old timer" runners have told me they would spend time on the course before the race figuring out the best places to cut the course. These were competitive racers at the head of the race. They would not be figuring out how best to stray from the main trail if it was not worth it.
You must have been talking to some "old, old, old timers," and some really shady ones at that. I first ran the Ascent in 1986, and I don't remember any claim by anyone at any time that we were running on something called an "open course" which permitted participants to cut or "stray from" the course. I do recall that Matt, in discussing the history of the race, has mentioned at least top one runner in the seventies who cut the course and didn't get disqualified, and I recall what sounded like well-grounded allegations that certain European runners, trained in the "open course" tradition of European mountain running, sought to do the same thing on the descent portion of the Marathon in relatively recent times (perhaps within the last ten or twelve years) when a more international field began to develop, but that gross violation of the Pikes Peak rules was shut down by educating those international competitors that such conduct would get them disqualified very quickly. And if you tried it in delicate ecosystems such as those above timberline, disqualification would be the least of your problems, since you would be disturbing and destroying exceptionally delicate and federally protected ecosystems on federal property that could take a century to recover from that sort of thing. As for your assertion that "[t}he race used to be an open course," I'm not aware of any time that was true, but it's certainly true that the race has evolved a bit from the original smokers vs. nonsmokers contest.
Yep, Sage lost all of my respect after his posts here.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
He's turned into an insecure narcissist. His insistence on 2:16 laughable. Comparing Sage to Matt is a joke. People are still talking about Carpenter in 2023 in very high esteem. No one has talked about Sage in any serious capacity as a runner in the past few years, and very little during his peak years. Instead of accepting his irrelevance as a "pro runner", he continues to post more controversial and trollish content on here to avoid falling into obscurity.
Look at this thread - a couple posts congratulating SJD on his great weekend and little Sage sticks his head in to derail the praise and randomly hint that Carpenter's record is phony, totally out of nowhere. Needs to rehash his (subpar) results and draw attention to himself, again. Does he have an ounce of class or tact whatsoever? Start a new thread FFS b*tching about Carpenter's record and let eggman get some well-deserved praise.
And other posters on here have given lots of context and explanation to why the raw data may not tell the whole story (e.g. why Carpenter never ran close to his record in later years). Very little mention of his other accomplishments as well (e.g. his Leadville 100 course record).
By the way, a big thanks to the "old timers" posting on here giving us nuggets of info that have been lost to time. It's a shame how little written history there is pre-early-2000s and it's really cool to hear from guys that knew Carpenter in his heyday. This is the kind of the stuff that makes LRC amazing despite the high number of trolls like Sage on here.
That Leadville CR is very beatable. If Jim or Tom tried I’d bet they’d get it.
I think it would do you well to stop leading with these. It detracts away from the actual point you are trying to make and instead makes you look insecure and like you are throwing a tantrum.
The facts and the data all point to Carpenter's 3:16 marathon record at Pikes being basically the biggest outlier in the entire realm of MUT Running established race history relative to all his running performances.... whether you like it or not!
From everything that Sage has said, it certainly does seem to be a fairly large outlier. If it was even mid 3:20s it would be a remarkable run for him. Of course, it's entirely possible he just had the absolute dream of dreams run and ran beyond his normal capabilities. Given the lack of solid evidence from that era, I think most people will just need to accept it as a weirdly exceptional performance. However, I think it's fair for Sage to put a small asterisk next to it given the background context; in the same way that FloJo's record still stands but we put a little contextual asterisk next to it.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
He's turned into an insecure narcissist. His insistence on 2:16 laughable. Comparing Sage to Matt is a joke. People are still talking about Carpenter in 2023 in very high esteem. No one has talked about Sage in any serious capacity as a runner in the past few years, and very little during his peak years. Instead of accepting his irrelevance as a "pro runner", he continues to post more controversial and trollish content on here to avoid falling into obscurity.
Look at this thread - a couple posts congratulating SJD on his great weekend and little Sage sticks his head in to derail the praise and randomly hint that Carpenter's record is phony, totally out of nowhere. Needs to rehash his (subpar) results and draw attention to himself, again. Does he have an ounce of class or tact whatsoever? Start a new thread FFS b*tching about Carpenter's record and let eggman get some well-deserved praise.
And other posters on here have given lots of context and explanation to why the raw data may not tell the whole story (e.g. why Carpenter never ran close to his record in later years). Very little mention of his other accomplishments as well (e.g. his Leadville 100 course record).
By the way, a big thanks to the "old timers" posting on here giving us nuggets of info that have been lost to time. It's a shame how little written history there is pre-early-2000s and it's really cool to hear from guys that knew Carpenter in his heyday. This is the kind of the stuff that makes LRC amazing despite the high number of trolls like Sage on here.
That Leadville CR is very beatable. If Jim or Tom tried I’d bet they’d get it.
Right on. That's probably also the reason why the Leadville CR is from 2005.
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
If Sage thinks the course was short that year why doesn't he say so? And does anyone really believe that Matt Carpenter would not have known that the course was short? This is a guy who knew every inch of that course.
And it's laughable to compare Carpenter to FloJo, an athlete that completely changed her physical appearance and smashed the biggest records in women's T&F by large margins.
Yes, everyone can look at the numbers and see that 3:16 was an outlier for Carpenter. But I would like to hear Sage's theory for why it occurred. Either he thinks Matt cheated in some way, or there is some other reasonable explanation.
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
I think he is implying some kind of impropriety by Matt. He's just not willing to stick his neck out far enough to make a logical claim beyond the 3:16 not passing his eye test. Plenty of people have given reasons to back the validity of the 3:16, but Sage gives none to disprove it's validity.
Yep, Sage lost all of my respect after his posts here.
I don't know what happened to him. He used to be a goofy loveable very-sub-elite runner that put out quality training videos.
Sage hasn't changed. He's always played the @Armstronglivs role on this board of thinking everyone other than him is cheating for trail, mountain, and ultra world. When not pulled off in that direction, he's OK.
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
The start, finish or turn around point could have been off by like a hundred feet or something, but people would have noticed if they were off by enough to save ten minutes. There’s nowhere the course could accidentally be shortened by the organizers except for at the beginning of the ascent turning up Hydro Street onto Barr Trail without going all the way up Ruxton. But again, people would have noticed this, and it also doesn’t explain the descent time because you skip this on the way down anyway. Plus everyone else’s times were also not incredible that year which they would have been if the course was short. He could have illegally cut the switchbacks from the summit to the A-frame, or come down the incline instead of the W’s. But again, this is so blatant, and in portions of the course where both other competitors and spectators would be sure to notice it.
I’m very confident that the time and distance are legit. Now was he was able to do it because he “dedicated his entire season to preparing for that race”, or was there some chemical enhancement going on? And I’m not accusing Carpenter specifically, just noting you have to question all athletic achievements from that time period.
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
The start, finish or turn around point could have been off by like a hundred feet or something, but people would have noticed if they were off by enough to save ten minutes. There’s nowhere the course could accidentally be shortened by the organizers except for at the beginning of the ascent turning up Hydro Street onto Barr Trail without going all the way up Ruxton. But again, people would have noticed this, and it also doesn’t explain the descent time because you skip this on the way down anyway. Plus everyone else’s times were also not incredible that year which they would have been if the course was short. He could have illegally cut the switchbacks from the summit to the A-frame, or come down the incline instead of the W’s. But again, this is so blatant, and in portions of the course where both other competitors and spectators would be sure to notice it.
I’m very confident that the time and distance are legit. Now was he was able to do it because he “dedicated his entire season to preparing for that race”, or was there some chemical enhancement going on? And I’m not accusing Carpenter specifically, just noting you have to question all athletic achievements from that time period.
Carpenter ran 2:01:06/1:15:33/3:16:39 in 1993 to win.
In second, Carpenter's biggest rival, Ricardo Mejia, recorded his slowest full marathon ascent, descent, and finish in 1993 by good margins -- 2:16:09/1:26:50/3:42:14. (For reference, Mejia ran 2:05:04/1:16:28/3:21:32 in 1995.)
The third place finisher, Senovio Torres, who has apparently run a million Pikes Peak marathons, had his BEST finish time (3:46:33) by a good margin (next best 3:52:38) .
The fourth place finisher, Sheldon Larson, ran 3:51:44 which was ten minutes slower than his 1987 winning time, but is consistent with his other results over the years.
The start, finish or turn around point could have been off by like a hundred feet or something, but people would have noticed if they were off by enough to save ten minutes. There’s nowhere the course could accidentally be shortened by the organizers except for at the beginning of the ascent turning up Hydro Street onto Barr Trail without going all the way up Ruxton. But again, people would have noticed this, and it also doesn’t explain the descent time because you skip this on the way down anyway. Plus everyone else’s times were also not incredible that year which they would have been if the course was short. He could have illegally cut the switchbacks from the summit to the A-frame, or come down the incline instead of the W’s. But again, this is so blatant, and in portions of the course where both other competitors and spectators would be sure to notice it.
I’m very confident that the time and distance are legit. Now was he was able to do it because he “dedicated his entire season to preparing for that race”, or was there some chemical enhancement going on? And I’m not accusing Carpenter specifically, just noting you have to question all athletic achievements from that time period.
Carpenter ran 2:01:06/1:15:33/3:16:39 in 1993 to win.
In second, Carpenter's biggest rival, Ricardo Mejia, recorded his slowest full marathon ascent, descent, and finish in 1993 by good margins -- 2:16:09/1:26:50/3:42:14. (For reference, Mejia ran 2:05:04/1:16:28/3:21:32 in 1995.)
The third place finisher, Senovio Torres, who has apparently run a million Pikes Peak marathons, had his BEST finish time (3:46:33) by a good margin (next best 3:52:38) .
The fourth place finisher, Sheldon Larson, ran 3:51:44 which was ten minutes slower than his 1987 winning time, but is consistent with his other results over the years.
Following up on this, in 1995 Mejia was beaten to the top by Martin Rodriguez (Mexico) in 2:04:51. Rodriguez finished second in 3:26:28. So 2 guys from Mexico ran faster than Kilian's best time. Does that mean they were better than Kilian? Of course not (althought Mejia was a major talent), but it does show that there is tremedous variability on an extreme course compared to a track 10000 or even a road marathon and outliers are probably more likely to occur.
I am complete outsider, I don't know a lot about this race or the people being discussed but I just have to say that I think its pretty pathetic how people are attacking Sage. It honestly seems to me that Sage has brought up some very relevant data points and idk maybe that just makes some old timers uncomfortable because they idolize this guy. Its actually pretty sad and pathetic.
Sage never attacked the guy or made any unreasonable or offensive remarks. You guys are acting like babies about this. So what if he thinks theres something off about that CR?
I’ve always been perplexed at why LRC has such a hard-on for Sage’s posts here. His bullsh*t has been ignored on social media for years now but for whatever reason he’s historically gotten a lot of traction here. Nice to see him arguing all the normal petty BS here and showing his true colors for the boards.
Sage and Joe’s doping schtick toward Carpenter’s record is so tiring. These are a couple of guys that never truly made the top couple tiers in the sport complaining about how people much better than they are MUST have cheated. How long have you been in the sport? How many examples of athletes having a truly remarkable season or two do you need before you understand that this is just typical for distance running? Sometimes things just click, or you stop going through the motions and truly focus and throw everything at a goal. I believe this to be the case for Matt on Pikes in 1993.
This thread shows that he’s willing to imply the same thing for Rémi too. It reeks of insecurity. For whatever reason Kilian has passed the test and Sage will no longer imply that he’s suspect (as he used to), but this is the same crowd that was crying about Walmsley when he first burst on the scene years ago too. It’s awful.
Assume the best of people and you’ll go a lot further in life, Sage.
And it's laughable to compare Carpenter to FloJo, an athlete that completely changed her physical appearance and smashed the biggest records in women's T&F by large margins.
I wasn't comparing the two athletes persay; it was more that whenever FloJo's records are brought up, the context of her outstanding times is provided so that a layperson can understand that all may not be as it seems. Matt's course record seems to fit into that category in which a layperson on all matters trail running might like to know a little more about his other times/the all-time greats' times so they can decide whether it was an absolute unicorn of a performance (possible) or there was something else going on (also possible). More transparency, context and information is a good thing imo. If nothing else, it shows how outstanding his performance was, if you decide it was legit.
I don't think Sage is accusing Carpenter of cheating or questioning his integrity. Rather, the claim is that the course may have been short that year. It is not a crazy claim to make. It happens all the time in ultras. It even happens with significant road races.
Perhaps it would be helpful to do further analysis of the field for that particular year. Did other athletes have significant outlier performances? Were the results on average significantly faster? Were the conditions significantly more favorable for whatever reason (frozen ground, tail wind at the perfect time, ideal temperatures...)?
I think he is implying some kind of impropriety by Matt. He's just not willing to stick his neck out far enough to make a logical claim beyond the 3:16 not passing his eye test. Plenty of people have given reasons to back the validity of the 3:16, but Sage gives none to disprove it's validity.
I mean what were the valid reasons? That he focused soley on that race that year and knew the course like the back of his hand? It still begs the question, why he could never even come close to that time ever again? If there was something perfect about that day, the weather, condition of the course etc... why no one else ran a good time? Just him, only Matt had a magical day that day and all that knowledge of the course and specific training he did wasn't enough to even run a 3:20 something? Seems pretty suss.
I am complete outsider, I don't know a lot about this race or the people being discussed but I just have to say that I think its pretty pathetic how people are attacking Sage. It honestly seems to me that Sage has brought up some very relevant data points and idk maybe that just makes some old timers uncomfortable because they idolize this guy. Its actually pretty sad and pathetic.
Sage never attacked the guy or made any unreasonable or offensive remarks. You guys are acting like babies about this. So what if he thinks theres something off about that CR?
You are just pretending to be a total outsider.
If something was off about Matt Carpenter's CR than talk about it and not dancing around that topic. Basically Sage Canaday is accusing Matt Carpenter of cheating in 2005 without providing any evidence. Not sure how he will come up with that evidence 18 years later.
Sage lied already about his Marathon PR, I no longer believe anything he says.