If anyone knows na answer to OP I would love to hear it.
Saucony has gone to *-€€:€ in recent years. Everything over cushioned. Top part lasts two months if you're lucky.
I've run about 300 miles in the sinisters and prob will buy a new pair, but I don't consider them a good shoe.
They wear out fast. They have a stack height that is prob a bit higher than it should be and they should have switched the forefoot to something like continental rubber, not wear out fast nubs. They made a 5k racer that is slower than 5k racers made 20 years ago with the gimic that hey its the only flat on the market.
It looks like I'm going to try to race in the mizuno wave cruise and only use the sinisters for off road slow stuff.
Something like 22 mm stack/4 mm drop is ideal for racing flats and going lower than this is less detrimental than going higher.
I've found them to be plenty fast for 5k, but 10k-HM is probably their sweet spot. A nice thing about the modern foams is they don't take as much set during a run, so I can take these out for a 20 miler on roads without getting sore feet (whereas the Type A and Streak LT were only good for the first ~150 miles). If the shape was more natural, the Sinister would be my choice for marathons.
I've run about 300 miles in the sinisters and prob will buy a new pair, but I don't consider them a good shoe.
They wear out fast. They have a stack height that is prob a bit higher than it should be and they should have switched the forefoot to something like continental rubber, not wear out fast nubs. They made a 5k racer that is slower than 5k racers made 20 years ago with the gimic that hey its the only flat on the market.
It looks like I'm going to try to race in the mizuno wave cruise and only use the sinisters for off road slow stuff.
Something like 22 mm stack/4 mm drop is ideal for racing flats and going lower than this is less detrimental than going higher.
I've found them to be plenty fast for 5k, but 10k-HM is probably their sweet spot. A nice thing about the modern foams is they don't take as much set during a run, so I can take these out for a 20 miler on roads without getting sore feet (whereas the Type A and Streak LT were only good for the first ~150 miles). If the shape was more natural, the Sinister would be my choice for marathons.
Interesting. I've run as far as 20 in the sinister but my feet hurt a bit. I'd probably race up to 10 miles in the sinister. In the streak lt, my feet don't hurt - well except for racing in the lt 3 and 4. I've used the lt 2 and down for marathon and the 3 and 4 I'd go up to half. For me the streak lt 3 and 4 last around 250ish miles whereas the streak lt 2 and down lasted 500+ .
Samba is lower stack than most shoes on the market, but I wouldn't consider it minimal. 11.8 oz in a men's 9!
Back in the day, a bunch of "early minimalists" ran in the puma h street casual shoe. The flats of the time mostly sucked. Then shoes like the nike streak 3 and The streak xc, brooks t3, and adizero line appeared on the market. The streak xc was the go to for minimalists, unless they were running in marathon flats or such.
Hearing those early flats again is making me nostalgic for when I was super into minimalism, just after reading "Born to Run" in high school. Those flats were before my time but I hopped on the bandwagon with the Kinvara 3s and was drinking the Kool-Aid for a while. Never went full racing flat but I did do a stint in the Adizero Adios with boost and had a pair of Lunaracers that I loved for tempos and anything fast. Haven't really found a flat/speed day shoe since that hits the same as those Lunaracers. I thought the Streakfly could be the one but found out pretty quickly they're a much different shoe.
Samba is lower stack than most shoes on the market, but I wouldn't consider it minimal. 11.8 oz in a men's 9!
Back in the day, a bunch of "early minimalists" ran in the puma h street casual shoe. The flats of the time mostly sucked. Then shoes like the nike streak 3 and The streak xc, brooks t3, and adizero line appeared on the market. The streak xc was the go to for minimalists, unless they were running in marathon flats or such.
Hearing those early flats again is making me nostalgic for when I was super into minimalism, just after reading "Born to Run" in high school. Those flats were before my time but I hopped on the bandwagon with the Kinvara 3s and was drinking the Kool-Aid for a while. Never went full racing flat but I did do a stint in the Adizero Adios with boost and had a pair of Lunaracers that I loved for tempos and anything fast. Haven't really found a flat/speed day shoe since that hits the same as those Lunaracers. I thought the Streakfly could be the one but found out pretty quickly they're a much different shoe.
Ya, those early flats nearly instantly cured foot, ankle, and calf issues that had plagued me for the first several years of my running. After discovering letsrun and dyestat, it took me a couple years, but I finally made the plunge into minimalism. With the lower leg issues gone, I could actually run decent mileage for the first time in my life. Funny that the magazine articles and mainstream running advice of that day just parroted whatever shoe companies wanted published.
I tried the streakfly after all the hype surround it as a replacement for the streak or even streak lt. Its just another bounce shoe. This one, with a slightly lower stack than some other bouncers. This was my 3rd bouncer I purchased and will be the last. Because of the hype, I tried forcing myself to run in them. 2 weeks of bad runs led to a calf injury that took me out of running for 6 weeks.
This is why I will never stop wearing or talking about minimal shoes. There are probably a lot of other runners out there suffering injury issues and newer ones don't even have the resource, low stack shoes, that would see them run like a human is evolved to.
Xero just dropped a new running shoe, it's wide, flexible, zero drop and 10mm stack including outsole, cushion, and removable sock liner. Good return policy so try it out
Our best-selling road running shoe for men, evolved. With a more aggressive tire tread-inspired outsole and a thin BareFoam™ layer for added protection
Xero just dropped a new running shoe, it's wide, flexible, zero drop and 10mm stack including outsole, cushion, and removable sock liner. Good return policy so try it out
Seems like xero makes shoes that are as minimal as you can get without running barefoot. This could be a solution for a lot of people. Unfortunately for me, its just not enough shoe. I guess that makes sense. I can't run barefoot well either - even on the most manicured grass, I'm slow barefoot.
Good update. I’ve discovered that racing flats are still being made by all the big running companies. They just aren’t publicizing them and Running Warehouse doesn’t carry them. They call them “cross country racing shoes” with 4 of 5 colors being spikes, but always 1 color no spikes. I am experimenting with the Saucony Kilkenny and the Nike Rival Waffle.
The Nike Rival Waffle arrived yesterday and I ran 15 miles in them today on the road. They’re a nearly perfect minimalist flat. They are essentially the LT4 Streak, just a touch softer foam (which makes it even better for daily running). Will report back on the Saucony Kilkenny once I receive it.
Good update. I’ve discovered that racing flats are still being made by all the big running companies. They just aren’t publicizing them and Running Warehouse doesn’t carry them. They call them “cross country racing shoes” with 4 of 5 colors being spikes, but always 1 color no spikes. I am experimenting with the Saucony Kilkenny and the Nike Rival Waffle.
The Nike Rival Waffle arrived yesterday and I ran 15 miles in them today on the road. They’re a nearly perfect minimalist flat. They are essentially the LT4 Streak, just a touch softer foam (which makes it even better for daily running). Will report back on the Saucony Kilkenny once I receive it.
Good update. I’ve discovered that racing flats are still being made by all the big running companies. They just aren’t publicizing them and Running Warehouse doesn’t carry them. They call them “cross country racing shoes” with 4 of 5 colors being spikes, but always 1 color no spikes. I am experimenting with the Saucony Kilkenny and the Nike Rival Waffle.
The Nike Rival Waffle arrived yesterday and I ran 15 miles in them today on the road. They’re a nearly perfect minimalist flat. They are essentially the LT4 Streak, just a touch softer foam (which makes it even better for daily running). Will report back on the Saucony Kilkenny once I receive it.
How is the width on those Nike Rival Waffle?
Definitely snug. Works for me and hope it works for you.
This makes no sense. A racing flat is functionally the very definition of a minimalist shoe.
If they are not minimal compared to other running shoes, they are not racing flats at all.
Nike Waffle Racer was like spikes with rubber treads where the spikes would have been, and of course no hard spike plate. If they would make flats like that again, it's what I'd get.
Good update. I’ve discovered that racing flats are still being made by all the big running companies. They just aren’t publicizing them and Running Warehouse doesn’t carry them. They call them “cross country racing shoes” with 4 of 5 colors being spikes, but always 1 color no spikes. I am experimenting with the Saucony Kilkenny and the Nike Rival Waffle.
The Nike Rival Waffle arrived yesterday and I ran 15 miles in them today on the road. They’re a nearly perfect minimalist flat. They are essentially the LT4 Streak, just a touch softer foam (which makes it even better for daily running). Will report back on the Saucony Kilkenny once I receive it.
How is running in the rival waffles going for you? I just ordered a pair now that I'm on my last pair of streak lts. Hopefully it works on the road for me, but if not I guess I can use them in the like 2 open xc races I do a year (primarily racing roads these days).
So I bought a pair of the nike zoom rival waffle 6 and am now running on them on the roads. It took some time to get the sizing right. These shoes are very narrow. Despite being unisex, I'd say they are B width at best - meaning if you are a woman, you might feel they fit normally ha.
I don't know if I can do all my training in these bc of how narrow they are, but we'll see. I found sizing up half a size works best - took some trial and error to figure out, which considering I have to buy shoes online these days is super annoying - just study the human foot to size your shoes nike.
Anyways, the shoe has more give and is softer than the streak lt, but tighter. If I hadn't been training in the streak lts these would be too tight. The heel is especially tight. You'll want to do heel exercises to strengthen your ankles if you are going to run in these. Despite being made for xc, the traction on this shoe is not great. I don't think I'd race in them in the rain and I definitely wouldn't run with them on a muddy course.
I imagine the guy who ran 15 miles in them probably does a lot of running in spikes already. Wearing spikes for a significant amount of training is the only way I could see someone reporting this shoe as great.
The shoe is more forgiving than the streak lt 3 and 4, except in the ankle and less forgiving than the xc 1, 2, and 3, and lt 1 and 2. I rate it subpar compared to how a racing flat should feel - like the streak xc 1 - lt 2, but its probably the best thing on the market and you can run with it on the roads. I'm not sure about long runs in these though bc they are so tight.
I got the Speed Force II a couple weeks back, and have been extremely impressed with the quality. From what I’ve read about the HFS, the SF2 is a little more minimal and closer to the ground while being lighter. It’s the perfect shoe for me!
So I bought a pair of the nike zoom rival waffle 6 and am now running on them on the roads. It took some time to get the sizing right. These shoes are very narrow. Despite being unisex, I'd say they are B width at best - meaning if you are a woman, you might feel they fit normally ha.
I don't know if I can do all my training in these bc of how narrow they are, but we'll see. I found sizing up half a size works best - took some trial and error to figure out, which considering I have to buy shoes online these days is super annoying - just study the human foot to size your shoes nike.
Anyways, the shoe has more give and is softer than the streak lt, but tighter. If I hadn't been training in the streak lts these would be too tight. The heel is especially tight. You'll want to do heel exercises to strengthen your ankles if you are going to run in these. Despite being made for xc, the traction on this shoe is not great. I don't think I'd race in them in the rain and I definitely wouldn't run with them on a muddy course.
I imagine the guy who ran 15 miles in them probably does a lot of running in spikes already. Wearing spikes for a significant amount of training is the only way I could see someone reporting this shoe as great.
The shoe is more forgiving than the streak lt 3 and 4, except in the ankle and less forgiving than the xc 1, 2, and 3, and lt 1 and 2. I rate it subpar compared to how a racing flat should feel - like the streak xc 1 - lt 2, but its probably the best thing on the market and you can run with it on the roads. I'm not sure about long runs in these though bc they are so tight.
I’ve been enjoying the Rival Waffle. They are snug and narrow, but works for me. I’m 5’8 140 so maybe bring lighter helps with minimalist shoes. I run in them 4-5 times per week. The other 2-3 days I am doing Reebok Floatride Run Fast 3.0 (bought a few weeks ago from recommendation in this thread). Those have a few issues but at least don’t have a huge stack height and are light (issues: had to remove inserts to get locked in and not feel heel slippage; also takes 20 miles to break in stiff shank which feels awkwardly at first).
So I bought a pair of the nike zoom rival waffle 6 and am now running on them on the roads. It took some time to get the sizing right. These shoes are very narrow. Despite being unisex, I'd say they are B width at best - meaning if you are a woman, you might feel they fit normally ha.
I don't know if I can do all my training in these bc of how narrow they are, but we'll see. I found sizing up half a size works best - took some trial and error to figure out, which considering I have to buy shoes online these days is super annoying - just study the human foot to size your shoes nike.
Anyways, the shoe has more give and is softer than the streak lt, but tighter. If I hadn't been training in the streak lts these would be too tight. The heel is especially tight. You'll want to do heel exercises to strengthen your ankles if you are going to run in these. Despite being made for xc, the traction on this shoe is not great. I don't think I'd race in them in the rain and I definitely wouldn't run with them on a muddy course.
I imagine the guy who ran 15 miles in them probably does a lot of running in spikes already. Wearing spikes for a significant amount of training is the only way I could see someone reporting this shoe as great.
The shoe is more forgiving than the streak lt 3 and 4, except in the ankle and less forgiving than the xc 1, 2, and 3, and lt 1 and 2. I rate it subpar compared to how a racing flat should feel - like the streak xc 1 - lt 2, but its probably the best thing on the market and you can run with it on the roads. I'm not sure about long runs in these though bc they are so tight.
I’ve been enjoying the Rival Waffle. They are snug and narrow, but works for me. I’m 5’8 140 so maybe bring lighter helps with minimalist shoes. I run in them 4-5 times per week. The other 2-3 days I am doing Reebok Floatride Run Fast 3.0 (bought a few weeks ago from recommendation in this thread). Those have a few issues but at least don’t have a huge stack height and are light (issues: had to remove inserts to get locked in and not feel heel slippage; also takes 20 miles to break in stiff shank which feels awkwardly at first).
I've tried the reebok shoe. For me, it didn't seem they broke in that much and the stiffness didn't disapear even after the shoe was broken in, I think I ran 50 miles in them over a handful of runs in a couple weeks and threw them in the closet.
Do you use the rival waffles on the road? Were you already training a lot in spikes? I've been running in the streak lt for years, but even compared to those, an already narrow shoe, the rival waffle feels tight. They feel like b width, ie women's typical shoe width. I imagine any man who wasn't already training in spikes or minimal flats like the streak lt would destroy their feet.
This makes no sense. A racing flat is functionally the very definition of a minimalist shoe.
If they are not minimal compared to other running shoes, they are not racing flats at all.
Nike Waffle Racer was like spikes with rubber treads where the spikes would have been, and of course no hard spike plate. If they would make flats like that again, it's what I'd get.
The racing flats I've tried tend to have the standard narrow toebox that squeeze toes together and inhibits big toe functionality which affects gait all the way up the kinetic chain. One of the defining properties of today's minimalist or "barefoot" shoes is a wider toebox that accommodates toe splay, in particular the big toe. I e. shoes that are foot-shaped rather than shoe-shaped; the shoe conforms to the foot, rather than the foot conforming to the shoe.
