Semenya is a far cry from a boy who is on hormone blockers by choice. It is not the same topic nor issue we have to address. It is cruel and not fair to young ladies like Semenya.
Semenya is a biological man.
Your statement is insane and extremely offensive to all real women.
Thomas case did not reach any court because NCAA has already changed its rule, and Thomas is ineligible in any competition sanctioned by USA Swimming or World Aquatics. If anyone has legal standing to sue anyone, it's Thomas against USA Swimming and World Aquatics. And no sane lawyer will take that case.
To be accurate, the NCAA is still in the process of changing its rules. Trans-identified NCAA athletes won't have to comply fully with the sports-specific standards set out by World Acquatics in June 2022 and by World Athletics in March 2023 until the 2024-25 season. The starting date is August 1, 2024.
I've found it hard to grasp the exact rules in force at the present moment because rather than set out the rules all in one place, the NCAA has scattered them in piecemeal fashion here and there across a bunch of different documents that deal with different aspects and say different things.
But the impression I get is that until August 1, 2024, other trans-identifed male athletes like CeCe Telfer or Lia Thomas could compete in NCAA women's events and win women's NCAA national championship titles so long as they can document that they've suppressed their serum testosterone to "within the allowable levels for the sport in which the student-athlete plans to compete" for a year prior to starting to compete in women's events.
The NCAA interim rules now in force don't say what the "allowable levels" are. My hunch is that for aquatics and for track & field, they probably mean the 2.5 nmol/L level that both of the WAs have used in their new rules as the threshold for males who began "medical transition" by being put on "puberty blockers" as pre-teens - and that World Athletics is now using for XY DSD athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Mboma.
But that's just my hunch. The NCAA rules now in force don't actually say.
Thanks for the update. NCAA initially announced that the "phase three" would start this fall. I guess they decided to delay.
But the basic point still stands. There is no legal merit to dispute the rule that is going to change anyway. What do you want to the court to do? Declare that the current rule infringes on your right and it should be changed? Well, it will be changed anyway so why does the court have to declare anything?
The transgender athletes are allowed to compete in the girls division. Your scenario is taking that right away from them. HS sports have absolutely nothing to do with non-binary divisions in road racing.
But there was a separate division and this is the category trans females were required do compete in, do you think this is a fair solution?
Which road race requires transgender athletes to compete in the non-binary division? Is it USATF policy?
Even the separate division is not equal, as it is dominated by the biologic males. It's the new abnormal.
Only trans females would be in this division. If a trans male wants to compete as a male, i don't think anyone would have an issue.
In sports like track & field and swimming, there wouldn't be an issue.
But in sports where a trans-identified female athlete would incur a greater and significant risk of injury or death competing in the male or open division under rules and regulations originally established for male-only participation and competition, insurance companies that provide liability coverage, sports governing bodies, coaches, refs etc. will have an issue.
For example, the new rules introduced by World Aquatics in June 2022 ban trans-identifed females from men's ultra-high diving outright because females who dive from that height are likely to suffer head and neck injuries that could kill them, leave them paralyzed and/or cause them brain injuries that will result in considerble mental and emotional dysfunction and damage.
The new Aquatics rules allow female trans-identified athletes to seek eligibility to play men's water polo. But female TI athletes can only apply eafter they've received instruction in the physical diffrences between the sexes and are deemed to understand the huge risks they'd be taking on - and only on the condition that they sign waivers letting everyone else - sports bodies, refs, male water polo players, etc - entirely off the hook should the female TI athletes end up injured or worse.
Still, I can see male water polo players objecting to allowing female trans-identified athetes to play men's water polo. Most of the men and boys I know who play rough sports like water polo, ice hockey, American football and rugby in men's and boys' leagues under the rules written for male-only play would feel obliged to hold back and watch themselves when playing with or against a trans-identified female for fear of causing serious injury. This would make doing those sports less enjoyable, challenging, rewarding and benficial for many male players. (Just like when my adult son or brother play tennis against me, it's fun and challenging for them, but it's still nowhere near as much fun and as challenging for them as when they play against another man.)
I think this would give male athletes in high-contact sports like water polo, hockey, rugby, etc legitimate grounds to mount a legal challenge if they were made to play men's water polo, hockey, rugby etc with or against a female athlete regardless of the female athlete's gender identity or how much testosterone said athlete has taken.
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I’m not sure how many of you regularly interact with these young women HS athletes from CA, but I’d bet it’s more likely they would walk off the line in protest if Athena was banned than they would walk off in protest that she’s allowed to compete. I can’t prove it, but I think a lot of you would be surprised if you spoke to them privately, one on one with no fear of backlash one way or another. What’s for sure, there’s no uniformity of viewpoint across the field.
I, too, have met plenty of girls and young women who have been so shielded from male physical advantage and male aggression that they don't accurately understand sex differences or the danger presented by erasing females in law and culture. I know plenty of girls and women whose compassion and empathy are being harnessed to render them complicit in their own oppression. Emotional blackmail is incredibly effective," Do you really think your gold medal is more important than a trans girl's right to EXIST?" It's all so twisted and manipulative, like half the country has borderline personality disorder when it comes to sex/gender (and a handful of other things).
This, this, 100% this is it.
I hear all the jokes about CA and their "agenda", and I was always ehhh kinda unsure about that really being as bad as some think and say, but it really seems like they're on their way to getting the populace exactly where they want them.
Add in that post that someone put up about the state tests and small percentage of schoolchildren in CA that have actually proven academic competence, and it kinda confirms it.
I, too, have met plenty of girls and young women who have been so shielded from male physical advantage and male aggression that they don't accurately understand sex differences or the danger presented by erasing females in law and culture. I know plenty of girls and women whose compassion and empathy are being harnessed to render them complicit in their own oppression. Emotional blackmail is incredibly effective," Do you really think your gold medal is more important than a trans girl's right to EXIST?" It's all so twisted and manipulative, like half the country has borderline personality disorder when it comes to sex/gender (and a handful of other things).
Why are you so sure their views are not well reasoned and enlightened? I held a more trans exclusionary view and it was the young women in my personal and professional life that convinced me otherwise. The women NOT the men. They categorically reject the idea that including Athena in their space erases them. People seem to think this is a trick being played on women by old guys like me. Well, in my corner of the world, it’s the other way around.
Just to add on, more than a few of these women have experienced dismissal, discrimination and abuse at the hands of men. They just don’t see the Athenas of the world as a threat. No, she’s an ally.
Because the "young" women we speak of have spent their entire lives being brainwashed to believe this.
I hear all the jokes about CA and their "agenda", and I was always ehhh kinda unsure about that really being as bad as some think and say, but it really seems like they're on their way to getting the populace exactly where they want them.
Add in that post that someone put up about the state tests and small percentage of schoolchildren in CA that have actually proven academic competence, and it kinda confirms it.
Can I ask you, who are “they” in your opinion? Like, there’s an evil wizard somewhere manipulating the CA population?” Are you referring to the nameless and faceless “woke” mob? You mean most of the CA population??
Lastly, you honestly think that men invented the sport of running because men are better at running than women?
No, I don't think that "men invented the sport of running because men are better at running than women."
That's not what I meant when I pointed out that nearly all sports were invented by men to give men and and boys a chance to hone and show off their prowess in performing the physical activities that human male bodies are naturally best at and most suited for.
I think that when men invented the sport of running, they did it simply because running is something men and boys are obviously and naturally good at and many of them/you enjoy.
When men invented the sport of running, I suspect women and girls never entered into their minds for a moment or factored into their reasoning at all.
For most of history, the vast majority of men running the world simply haven't seen much or any need to take "the second sex" into account in their designs and schemes. Because they saw us as inferior, second-rate, lesser and they didn't regard us as full human beings worthy of the same sort of consideration automatically accorded to males.
Which seems to be how you and the other men on this thread who keep insisting that women's and girls sports must be forced to be "inclusive" of males with trans identities see us too. Same as it ever was.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I, too, have met plenty of girls and young women who have been so shielded from male physical advantage and male aggression that they don't accurately understand sex differences or the danger presented by erasing females in law and culture. I know plenty of girls and women whose compassion and empathy are being harnessed to render them complicit in their own oppression. Emotional blackmail is incredibly effective," Do you really think your gold medal is more important than a trans girl's right to EXIST?" It's all so twisted and manipulative, like half the country has borderline personality disorder when it comes to sex/gender (and a handful of other things).
Why are you so sure their views are not well reasoned and enlightened? I held a more trans exclusionary view and it was the young women in my personal and professional life that convinced me otherwise. The women NOT the men. They categorically reject the idea that including Athena in their space erases them. People seem to think this is a trick being played on women by old guys like me. Well, in my corner of the world, it’s the other way around.
Just to add on, more than a few of these women have experienced dismissal, discrimination and abuse at the hands of men. They just don’t see the Athenas of the world as a threat. No, she’s an ally.
I don't think it's reasonable or enlightened because queer theory, like all offshoots of critical theory and postmodernism, is anti-scientific and trends naturally towards totalitarianism. All of this is founded on a belief that objectivity is a smokescreen for political power, and this principle leads people to reject aspects of reality that do not conform to political belief systems. There are obvious pitfalls to dismissing reality but even worse pitfalls associated with the belief that all knowledge about the world is a reflection of political power rather than evidence.
One can acknowledge the existence of bias in knowledge production without abandoning the quest for neutral understanding. That is not what queer theory and related ideologies are doing. In place of the liberal, democratic principle that all people can make a truth claim and that the one with the best evidence should provisionally be taken as true, critical/postmodernist theories argue that some people have special access to the truth based on their oppressed identities. Accordingly, people are supposed to believe the oppressed person regardless of the truthfulness of their assertions. In place of the liberal system, which tends to mitigate power grabs, this idea structure enables power grabs in the name of equity and compassion.
It's not surprising that women in your life would lead you down this path. Women are tuned into human suffering and survival and are particularly susceptible to arguments made in the name of care; women are primed to sacrifice their own needs for the sake of vulnerable others. This does not mean that all claims to vulnerability are valid or that the valid ones are the responsibility of women and girls to manage.
All of us are susceptible to theories that center human transcendence, and these days especially, self actualization. Trans hits on all of these vulnerabilities, but it is deeply flawed and harmful. It will not stop at polite acceptance of a small number of kids or adults. At its core, it is an assault on truth and embodied human existence.
Honestly, I think some people need to have a personal tangle with a psychopath or narcissist who is armed with these ideas in order to grasp how anti-human and nasty they are. It doesn't matter that most people who believe in these ideas are motivated by good will. The theories are Kafka traps and will inevitably lead to persecution and chaos.
How many transgender HS girls are there in America? And of that miniscule amount, how many actually compete in girls high school sports?
There are 15.3 million HS students are in the US. About 1.8% of them are transgender, according to CDC. That's about 275,400 trans students total. If we assume half of them are trans girls, that's 137,700.
We don't know how many actually compete on HS Sports. In state where they have data, it's usually in single digit. (Ohio has had 11 since 2015.) In states like California, there could be more. (Maybe a few dozen?)
Most trans students don't participate in school sports, and most who do are not good at their sports. There are a few exceptions here and there. But those exceptions do cause a problem and something needs to be done.
How many transgender HS girls are there in America? And of that miniscule amount, how many actually compete in girls high school sports?
There are 15.3 million HS students are in the US. About 1.8% of them are transgender, according to CDC. That's about 275,400 trans students total. If we assume half of them are trans girls, that's 137,700.
We don't know how many actually compete on HS Sports. In state where they have data, it's usually in single digit. (Ohio has had 11 since 2015.) In states like California, there could be more. (Maybe a few dozen?)
Most trans students don't participate in school sports, and most who do are not good at their sports. There are a few exceptions here and there. But those exceptions do cause a problem and something needs to be done.
exactly. It's not about the number. And governing bodies have wanted to turn a blind eye because they feel the problem is so small. If one cis girl athlete is offset by a trans identifying male then something needs to be done.
Sadie Engelhardt is one of a kind. But keep in mind that Lorelei Barrett PR'd by 16 seconds. Biological males who are sophomore/juniors see huge gains in their performances around this time that majority of biological females won't see. What if one of the two runners in this race pops off a 4:30? That would be more than enough to beat Sadie. A time that even Katelyn Tuohy herself could not touch in high school is the epigraph of Once a Runner, "you know how I know you ran 4:30 in high school, EVERYONE ran 4:30 in high school". I hope this illustrates just how much distance lies between the best boys and the best girls.
Lastly, you honestly think that men invented the sport of running because men are better at running than women?
No, I don't think that "men invented the sport of running because men are better at running than women."
That's not what I meant when I pointed out that nearly all sports were invented by men to give men and and boys a chance to hone and show off their prowess in performing the physical activities that human male bodies are naturally best at and most suited for.
I think that when men invented the sport of running, they did it simply because running is something men and boys are obviously and naturally good at and many of them/you enjoy.
When men invented the sport of running, I suspect women and girls never entered into their minds for a moment or factored into their reasoning at all.
For most of history, the vast majority of men running the world simply haven't seen much or any need to take "the second sex" into account in their designs and schemes. Because they saw us as inferior, second-rate, lesser and they didn't regard us as full human beings worthy of the same sort of consideration automatically accorded to males.
Which seems to be how you and the other men on this thread who keep insisting that women's and girls sports must be forced to be "inclusive" of males with trans identities see us too. Same as it ever was.
You must be referring to a different forum with your last paragraph.
I don't think it's reasonable or enlightened because queer theory, like all offshoots of critical theory and postmodernism, is anti-scientific and trends naturally towards totalitarianism. All of this is founded on a belief that objectivity is a smokescreen for political power, and this principle leads people to reject aspects of reality that do not conform to political belief systems. There are obvious pitfalls to dismissing reality but even worse pitfalls associated with the belief that all knowledge about the world is a reflection of political power rather than evidence.
One can acknowledge the existence of bias in knowledge production without abandoning the quest for neutral understanding. That is not what queer theory and related ideologies are doing. In place of the liberal, democratic principle that all people can make a truth claim and that the one with the best evidence should provisionally be taken as true, critical/postmodernist theories argue that some people have special access to the truth based on their oppressed identities. Accordingly, people are supposed to believe the oppressed person regardless of the truthfulness of their assertions. In place of the liberal system, which tends to mitigate power grabs, this idea structure enables power grabs in the name of equity and compassion.
It's not surprising that women in your life would lead you down this path. Women are tuned into human suffering and survival and are particularly susceptible to arguments made in the name of care; women are primed to sacrifice their own needs for the sake of vulnerable others. This does not mean that all claims to vulnerability are valid or that the valid ones are the responsibility of women and girls to manage.
All of us are susceptible to theories that center human transcendence, and these days especially, self actualization. Trans hits on all of these vulnerabilities, but it is deeply flawed and harmful. It will not stop at polite acceptance of a small number of kids or adults. At its core, it is an assault on truth and embodied human existence.
Honestly, I think some people need to have a personal tangle with a psychopath or narcissist who is armed with these ideas in order to grasp how anti-human and nasty they are. It doesn't matter that most people who believe in these ideas are motivated by good will. The theories are Kafka traps and will inevitably lead to persecution and chaos.
Ok, I’m not a scholar in this area as you seem to be, and I understand what you are saying, but I’m having trouble extrapolating to the existential threat you envision, or at least I’m not seeing this framework as a greater threat to civilization than from those who would deny any self actualization, like those denying accommodations and access to somebody based on their sexual orientation because it can’t be seen or proved to exist. There are well established concepts of “self” that don’t easily fit the empirical science framework. Listen, I completely reject that belief that a trans woman is female and I totally reject the notion that trans women don’t have biological advantages over females when it comes to sports. None of the women I know think this either, but Acknowledging this truth doesn’t negate reasonable requests for access and accommodation, and then it’s a matter of policy and law where to draw the lines. Everybody in my world, including the giant institution that employs me, the institutions that have educated my children, etc all totally reject the absolute stance of no access or accommodation. Allowing Athena to race in HS as she chooses is a reasonable accommodation many in my area agree with, but not everybody, that’s for sure.
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How many transgender HS girls are there in America? And of that miniscule amount, how many actually compete in girls high school sports?
There are 15.3 million HS students are in the US. About 1.8% of them are transgender, according to CDC. That's about 275,400 trans students total. If we assume half of them are trans girls, that's 137,700.
We don't know how many actually compete on HS Sports. In state where they have data, it's usually in single digit. (Ohio has had 11 since 2015.) In states like California, there could be more. (Maybe a few dozen?)
Most trans students don't participate in school sports, and most who do are not good at their sports. There are a few exceptions here and there. But those exceptions do cause a problem and something needs to be done.
In the New Hampshire Wilderness League Track & Field championships this week, a trans-identifed male HS student whose name I won't mention easily won the girls 1600.
The announcers said the obviously male athlete "cruised to the win," coming out in front right from the start and maintaining a 200 meter lead for most of the race. One female athlete was in the male athlete's wake for a spell, but the male athlete quickly left her far behind.
There are videos of the race online. The winner looks and runs like a zillion other bog- standard teenage boys, only with long hair styled in two braided plaits.
How many transgender HS girls are there in America? And of that miniscule amount, how many actually compete in girls high school sports?
There are 15.3 million HS students are in the US. About 1.8% of them are transgender, according to CDC. That's about 275,400 trans students total. If we assume half of them are trans girls, that's 137,700.
We don't know how many actually compete on HS Sports. In state where they have data, it's usually in single digit. (Ohio has had 11 since 2015.) In states like California, there could be more. (Maybe a few dozen?)
Most trans students don't participate in school sports, and most who do are not good at their sports. There are a few exceptions here and there. But those exceptions do cause a problem and something needs to be done.
It is a relatively small number, but trans girls are regularly completing at the highest levels taking away opportunities for biological girls. Why is it that with such a small number we are seeing so many athletes at the state level? Because an average boy is easily a top level girl. Conversely, the number of trans boys competing at a this level is zero.
Having non binary does not stop transwomen from racing in the female category, they are still allowed to do so.
It just gives biological males 3 chances to win and more access to prize money.
the female category should be restricted to biological females only.
The 'male category' should be open.
For non binary, bio females aren't winning that one either. If it makes people feel better to have it too fine.... but people should be honest about what is going on.