This thread has two purposes: Get me advice, and be a training log.
I've seen some very talented people (Ryan Hall post-TRT, Nick Symmonds) try what I describe in the title.
To my surprise, the only folks I've actually seen do this are former collegians that pull sumo.
I'm 28. Hung the spikes up in 2018, and have been lifting on and off since then. Got my deadlift to 485, but now only run maybe 20 times/year. To cut to the chase:
My current shape:
- 6', 180# (35# over race weight, but lean)
- 345/250/485 for S/B/D
- ~56 second 400m max.
- gassed after 4 miles at 7:50 pace
The goal is to pull 500 (conventional) and run a sub-5 mile on the same day by the end of August.
I'm confident that the deadlift can get there if I don't lose any weight, but need advice on how to manage mileage and workouts without it getting in the way of lifting. Has anyone done something similar?
You don't say how much speed buffer you would have at your best. In any case you need to work on a 5 minute mile ability on as low a mileage program as possible. Don't gain a bunch of weight thinking it will help your deadlift, DL responds to least to weight gain. I've trained very light lifters with 500+DL.
My best was ~4:20. A few years ago I ran 2:10 for 800 off 70/60 after 2 months of ~15 mpw with weekly workouts. Stopped lifting to race a friend for a bet. But I dropped down to 150. Deadlift went from 365 at the time to <300.
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I ran sub-5 when I was a little 12-year-old kid with very little training.
But you could shoot me up with steroids, give me optimal training and coaching for 10 years and I wouldn't be about to deadlift even 300 pounds, much less 500. My spine would snap before I even got with 200 pounds of that weight.
A good squatting build would be more surprising on a 4:20 miler. His numbers are actually very similar to Nick Symmonds.
One piece of advice that is speculation. I figure you should work on 500DL, with a 2:10 800m as an intermediate goal. It's slightly faster than you would need if training properly for a mile, but mile training is where you will impact your DL. I would come at it with low mileage, some speed reserve and be struggling to hold on at the end...
Yeah, at the time I squatted 345 I was weighing 170. gained about 20 lbs this year. Guessing my squat max is closer to 365. I have long legs and long arms, short torso. Good for deadlifting and running and not much else.
That makes a lot of sense. Not even sure if I want to run much mileage outside maybe tempo repeats and a short jog here and there. Thinking regular track workouts would be better for maintaining the explosive strength.
Im giving this challenge a good go this summer, I think a key part to being successful is being in that weird niche of muscular distance runners. I’m pretty close to 500 and I can go well under 5:00 in the mile, but a lot of that is because I’m 6’2 almost 180 lbs, and can still manage to train like a collegiate md runner.
Think of someone like Isaiah Jewett. I think he could run sub 4:20 and pull 500 tomorrow. I think you want to aim for that kind of build to be a deadlift miler hybrid man.
I think for me at least, I’m gonna do very highschool-esque MD training where it’s low volume and a good chunk of it is intervals. It’ll probably look more like that 25-30 mpw type 800m training. I think long runs and tempo runs will probably be out of the picture, opting more for stuff like 12x400m looking to go from 1:20 to 1:12 to still get that aerobic benefit. I think crushing 200s, 300s, and 400s with good rest will probably be my key sessions, to keep the speed reserve and anaerobic endurance in order while also trying to steer away from too much slow twitch adaptation, so I can focus on being explosive in the weight room.
I think a 6’ish guy at a lean 175-190 is the perfect candidate for both. You’ll want to get yourself to the point where you can run those 7:30-8:00 pace base runs with almost no challenge though. If you’re lean it’ll come back quick, especially considering you can run 56 right now, so you’re not out of general running shape it’s more likely just that you need to shake off the rust on the lungs. I also think your 56 fitness will give you some wiggle room to run 1:15s for repeats, even if you need to take a good amount of rest between each, but you gotta start somewhere.
I think this all checks out, and I wish you luck. you should post on here if you're getting close to an attempt.
Gonna say It's not that hard for a guy that has running talent to get up to a 500 deadlift and still run under 5. Very hard to come from the lifting side.
My plan is similar to yours. Going to focus on intervals, jogging a bit the day after for recovery, and that's it. I still have work to do to get to 500, so my main focus will be on getting comfortable with 510+, probably a back squat of 385ish ideally---Here's my update:
Got covid this week, just trained for the first time in about 6 days (still coughing, aches), and dropped to about 174.
Wanted to do some squat doubles and some benching, just putting in work:
warmed up to 8 doubles at 225-245-265-285-305-285-265-225. then 3x5 front squat at 135-185-235.
Warmed up to 2x185 on bench, decided to back down to 3x12 narrow grip @135. curls after.
Gonna hit the track tomorrow and try some "tempo" 800s. aiming for 3:15-->3:00. 3-5. Gotta start somewhere.
My race weight is 145 lol. Maybe what you write is true though. I’ll say, I don’t think there’s many people in that weight range that train deadlift enough to pull 5 plates. More so powerlifting types that are really generally fit.
I can hit 455 no problem every try. Figure 500 will be in the tank within a couple months—takes longer to progress now that I’m running too.
You'll either need to be a former sub 4:00 miler who then gave up running and got strong enough to get up to a 500 deadlift OR a 600-700lb deadlifter who gave up lifting and got skinny and fast enough for a sub 5:00.
They both require more than just hard work. They require good genetics.
At age 43 I was able to pull 400 and was still running 'OK' 4-7 mile runs at 7:30-45 pace but never really challenged myself to run an all-out mile. I 'think' I coulda run 5:20 at the same time as my 400 pull.
As always Alan I appreciate your posts. But I’m just a former-d3 scrub, and I’ll get there this summer (totally clean) working toward both at the same time. Don’t underestimate the power of Mr. Fantastic arms.
As a former 700 lb deadlifter with decent genetics for running (brother sub 2 800 in HS), I'll tell you there is no way a lifter does this. The OP might get it. I think it has to be someone coming from the running side. 5 minute mile is just too fast for a broken down lifter (people don't quit until they're injured).
Yesterday I did the same workout, but added narrow grip pause bench 3x10@155 and accessory shoulder and arm work.
Running later today, planning on doing some "speed development":
There's a classic LR thread where one coach goes into detail about a workout he claims has gotten many of his athletes several seconds faster over 200m. He references great results all the way up to 5k for masters runners especially, who started with terrible top-end speed. I swear by it.
What is this magical workout? 3x200, very long rest, in spikes, as fast as possible without straining for every rep. Meant to be done 1-2x per week for a few months. This brought my 200 down from 27-high to 24-mid when I was trying to get fast a few years ago.
I'll likely be hitting 27-30 today--will report back this evening.
Also I started taking creatine again, hoping I don't sh!t my brains out later. Cheers.
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video from Fergus Crawley focusing on training for this exact thing, he also has videos of his brother completing the DL/mile and him completing the squat/mile. Fair amount of YouTube BS in the vid but could have some tips