Also, an understanding of the different non-aerobic energy systems is something the vast majority of distance runners lack. That's why everybody on here has a different definition of "speed work." This chart I think is pretty valid.
"an understanding of the different non-aerobic energy systems is something the vast majority of distance runners lack."
Preach, Brother Old Washed Up Runner Guy! I'm in your church, and my kid needs a new pastor! Been biting my tongue, watching her school coach train the middle distance athletes like a bunch of half-marathoners.
Send her a link to this thread LOL
But yeah, the "distance runner" model of 800 training works for some - it worked for Nick Symmonds, worked for Seb Coe, worked for Makloufi, worked for Clayton Murphy - but it equally does not work well for others. A lot of milers also can run fast in the 8 with a lot of aerobic work which makes some distance coaches think they know how to coach the 8.
Luckily your daughter's only in middle school and there's still time.
Why isn't this the case for an 800 guy? What do I lose if I have my guy do 3x600 slightly faster than race pace on some "hard" days, 5x1000 slightly slower than race pace on other hard days, and then just fill in the days in between with either top speed work, or maybe some lactic tolerance stuff.
Those workouts are totally impossible how could you possibly come up with that.
My 1:56 came off of 8 1/2 months of basketball training as I was a starter on varsity and 3 1/2 months of track training. Mainly intervals. I thought running year round was going to improve my performance greatly but the emphasis on distance was very detrimental to my performance.
If you read the sub 1:50 thread, the primary poster, OldSub4, mentions that he dropped HUGE time in highschool (I think 1:56 to 1:51) when he played basketball for a season. He mentioned massively increasing his vertical. No coincidence that power can be just as important, if not more important, than "endurance" in such an event.
I actually feel like basketball isnt great training for the 800. I guess it depends what position you play though or how much you're moving without the ball. Much better for the 100-400
Coached a guy who ran 48.5 400m in HS (negatively splitting it). Meant that he wasn't really a 4/8 guy (although HE thought he was) and that I wasn't a very good sprint coach. He ran 1.47 off of that, but also a 3.45 1500m in his only attempt. At College ran 70m/week (no idea why) including a 8mile tempo run, but never ran 400's (ran his fastest the next summer- just under 48 - with me after his College coach got fired) in College, so his 800m never got much better (low 1.46). Made every NCAA 800m Final (but one, when injured and redshirting to move up to 1500), which is why he didn't move up to 1500m earlier.
OP, as mentioned earlier, get the kid in a FAT 200m (to get his speed ability) and a 1600m to see his endurance potential. This guy in HS ran 6miles as his Long run, and max 30 miles/week - did no LT work, just VO2max, Speed endurance, Lactate tolerance and speed/sprint work. He ran a 23.0 200m, but with hindsight, wish that he had done more of that at the time, and more real speed work in general.
These days as a 1500m guy does higher mileage and plenty of LT work.
Coached a guy who ran 48.5 400m in HS (negatively splitting it). Meant that he wasn't really a 4/8 guy (although HE thought he was) and that I wasn't a very good sprint coach. He ran 1.47 off of that, but also a 3.45 1500m in his only attempt. At College ran 70m/week (no idea why) including a 8mile tempo run, but never ran 400's (ran his fastest the next summer- just under 48 - with me after his College coach got fired) in College, so his 800m never got much better (low 1.46). Made every NCAA 800m Final (but one, when injured and redshirting to move up to 1500), which is why he didn't move up to 1500m earlier.
OP, as mentioned earlier, get the kid in a FAT 200m (to get his speed ability) and a 1600m to see his endurance potential. This guy in HS ran 6miles as his Long run, and max 30 miles/week - did no LT work, just VO2max, Speed endurance, Lactate tolerance and speed/sprint work. He ran a 23.0 200m, but with hindsight, wish that he had done more of that at the time, and more real speed work in general.
These days as a 1500m guy does higher mileage and plenty of LT work.
He ran a 10.90 over 100 en route to a 120 with me last year, without blocks and with a very awkward first 20m. He's very fast.
Those workouts are totally impossible how could you possibly come up with that.
+1
OP is a troll.
I don't think I ever stated that he DID 5x1000 at slightly slower than race pace. I asked what we'd be losing if that was his main aerobic work - why would this (or this at a slower pace, if it's impossible) be worse at cultivating aerobic capacity than, say, a 25-45 min run? This question appears to have struck some people as approaching sacrilege, which is why it's an interesting question to me.
Coming from the sprint world, claims about needing lots of overdistance and less race specificity intuitively struck me as outdated. But many of the learned & earnest answers on this thread have helped me see things in a different light, and I'm acting accordingly.
He did 3x600 at 1:21.3, 1:21.9, and 1:24.00 in January. Very tough workout for him, especially at the end. I think everyone is right that this sort of intensity is too great to do on a weekly basis.
I don't think I ever stated that he DID 5x1000 at slightly slower than race pace. I asked what we'd be losing if that was his main aerobic work - why would this (or this at a slower pace, if it's impossible) be worse at cultivating aerobic capacity than, say, a 25-45 min run? This question appears to have struck some people as approaching sacrilege, which is why it's an interesting question to me.
Coming from the sprint world, claims about needing lots of overdistance and less race specificity intuitively struck me as outdated. But many of the learned & earnest answers on this thread have helped me see things in a different light, and I'm acting accordingly.
He did 3x600 at 1:21.3, 1:21.9, and 1:24.00 in January. Very tough workout for him, especially at the end. I think everyone is right that this sort of intensity is too great to do on a weekly basis.
OP, why don't you give an example of a typical week of his training and people can add their suggestions. I think some easy runs and some v02max workouts would almost certainly help his endurance needed for the 8, without having to totally change up his training. Then next year he'll have a better idea of what he needs to do going in, instead of having to make changes during the season.
I don't think I ever stated that he DID 5x1000 at slightly slower than race pace. I asked what we'd be losing if that was his main aerobic work - why would this (or this at a slower pace, if it's impossible) be worse at cultivating aerobic capacity than, say, a 25-45 min run? This question appears to have struck some people as approaching sacrilege, which is why it's an interesting question to me.
Coming from the sprint world, claims about needing lots of overdistance and less race specificity intuitively struck me as outdated. But many of the learned & earnest answers on this thread have helped me see things in a different light, and I'm acting accordingly.
He did 3x600 at 1:21.3, 1:21.9, and 1:24.00 in January. Very tough workout for him, especially at the end. I think everyone is right that this sort of intensity is too great to do on a weekly basis.
running those times in a 3x600 is a ridiculous talent. i can't even fathom working with somebody like that. good luck op.
800m runners shouldn't train with massive recoveries. 15 min ir ridicilous.
For race pace decent workout is 5x300m with 3 or 4 min rest. Every next rep should be little faster, not slower. You can do these hard workouts maybe 2 times a month close to competition.
I don't think I ever stated that he DID 5x1000 at slightly slower than race pace. I asked what we'd be losing if that was his main aerobic work - why would this (or this at a slower pace, if it's impossible) be worse at cultivating aerobic capacity than, say, a 25-45 min run? This question appears to have struck some people as approaching sacrilege, which is why it's an interesting question to me.
Coming from the sprint world, claims about needing lots of overdistance and less race specificity intuitively struck me as outdated. But many of the learned & earnest answers on this thread have helped me see things in a different light, and I'm acting accordingly.
He did 3x600 at 1:21.3, 1:21.9, and 1:24.00 in January. Very tough workout for him, especially at the end. I think everyone is right that this sort of intensity is too great to do on a weekly basis.
No, people are saying that 3x 600m at that intensity in january for a guy running 1.53 is too much, unless you are in Australia and you are peaking in march, even then it is still too early. You should have stopped after the first two anyway as that is specific intensity for someone already running 1.48 for 800m. 3 x 500m would have been more appropriate - I use a progression of 6x300, 4x400, 3x500, 2x600, generally with more recovery if a 4/8 runner. For a less developed runner that progression could be 4x300, 3x400, 2x500, 1x 600. fast reps at Race pace or faster (Lactate Tolerance) need to be handled with care. 200m reps can be used for speed endurance, even 300's if experienced, but volume needs to be controlled in HS.
Check out Purdy tables - 48.5 is level 850. On the sprint side that is 10.8 and 21.8, on the distance side it is 1.51 and 4.12M. I personally take the recoveries with a grain of salt, but for a 48.5 guy it says 2-3 x 600 (4-5min rec) so 90%, should be 1.26. For a HS kid, especially a 4/8 guy (as you claim) I would err on the fewer reps side of the chart. That is intensity for 1-2 reps (95%) 1.22. I consider the first rep (1.21.3) as a time-trial for a 1.48 guy.
For the 1000's it is 4-5 x 1000 (3-4min rec) so 85%, should be 2.49. I think a developed 8/15 guy could do that intensity, but not a 4/8 guy. That is one of the problems I have with the chart, but then I have problems with some of the Daniels's charts as well. Formula's like these are not perfect, they require adjustment.
as a high school distance runner with a coach coming from the exact same background as you, his coaching has led me to get injured twice get slower in the season and feel absolutely terrible all day long. The workouts (similar to yours) have led me to have no confidence in my racing ability and just make me feel like I can't run. THE PHILOSIPHY OF SPRINTING DOESNT APPLY TO DISTANCE RUNNING THIS IS PROBALY THE WORST SEASON IVE EVER HAD. WE NEED RECOVERY AND LONG RUNS.