Woody still defends Shelby?!?

I mean all you really need to do is read the first 15 pages of the CAS report to realize that this level was way more nandrolone than what could just be found in a burrito. It’s almost like reading scientific evidence in America is so hard when you’re bombarded by every other terrible news media outlet.

i beg to differ. realize that the burrito joke is nonsense, then the only option left is intent. nandrolone was neither in her fruitcake nor toothpaste nor vitamins.

Jerry wasn't "shaken to the core." He knowingly set up a press call to propagate something he knew was very unlikely to be true - the whole burrito defense. The attempt to whitewash Houlihan was methodical and undermined her case, as well as calling into question the motivations of all the senior staff at BTC. It was a horrific misjudgement.

If Kincaid chooses to believe her, then that's on him. Bu he should ask himself: how would he feel if the same situation occurred with an athlete from another country? I guess he would have a different outlook

The thing is, it isn't an abstraction. Woody knows that people dope in the sport.

Think of a good friend or training partner. Now, the question is, what would you say if your good, close personal friend looked you in the eye and say, "I didn't do it. There has been some huge mess up. I am taking supplements, like all of us are, but this is just messed up. I have no idea what happened. I swear I didn't do. And look, they don't even claim I injected it, they say I ingested the stuff. Who even does that?! But either way, I promise you, I am not doping."

Remember, this is a good friend you actually like as a person and have know and trained with for years. This isn't "a random lady from Spain or Norway or Russia or Kenya."

p.s. I am not claiming guilt or innocence, I am trying to understand Woody's psychology, which honestly, seems 100% normal. People like, trust, and support their friends, especially during times of high stress (if you are a good friend).

I didn't defend the burrito excuse, it was an unsubstantiated attempt to claim tainted meat. This defense has been successful in the past, but supported by actual facts. Shelby was either taking the nadralone intentionally or truly does not have any idea how it got into her body. We don't know either way, and the system is not designed to help figure it out. So she can race again in 2025 if she chooses. Woody and the rest of Shelby's friends are welcome to believe their friend's innocence, it makes no difference in my respect for them.

Well, don't thank me--thank Woody. I was merely restating what he said in the podcast.

I disagree with you completely that intent should have any weight in this case. How on earth are they supposed to prove intent? This is also not a criminal case, they had a positive test. That was enough.

Actually in the podcast with Travis Tygart, Travis clearly explains the AIU and CAS' logic in the ban, which he himself agrees with.

I won't lie, I think Shelby is guilty and was intentionally cheating for years. One thing I have no tolerance for are the people crying about how "the system is flawed!" after she was banned. It's one thing to support her innocence because you're her friend. it's another to claim some injustice because your fave runner has to serve a ban for breaking the rules.

Can you explain why the system SHOULD be designed to "figure it out"? They had a positive test. It's not on them to hold her hand through the process. Also, it's not on them to get search warrants because again, it's not a criminal offense. Shelby whining about how they had no evidence except for a positive test is like a murderer whining that they had no evidence except their DNA at the crime scene. A positive test is not nothing. It is, in my opinion, all they needed. It's on Shelby to explain what happened. She couldn't do that. Why does that make the system flawed?

Her friends are welcome to believe her innocence, but any accusations that this is some sort of injustice will be met with harsh criticism because there was no injustice.

Understood, but still a weak defense of Woody's position. Thousands of people have to swallow hard truths about their family or friends every day, whether it be that that person is a murderer or pedophile or another kind of criminal. Surely, owning up to whether someone doped in a niche sport wouldn't be all that hard to do

But Jerry had never even heard of nandrolone. LOL. That crazy press conference, that they had months to plan, sealed the deal of her guilt to me as well as cast doubt on all of Jerry’s athletes

Totally agree. Woody seems like a nice guy who tends to believe the best in people and that's how he behaved for Shelby.

He just doesn't seem to have it in him to be nasty, he really could have trashed Schumacher, or Chelimo for his lane drifting in the 5000m trials, but he did not. Doesn't everyone know at least one person like that?

The system is flawed and will always be flawed. There is no mechanism for someone who didn't knowingly dope but tested positive to appeal if they don't know how the drug got into their body.

Others who have been suspended, the Balco scandal comes to mind, have additional supporting evidence that shows they were part of a systemic doping operation. I think this should be a factor for lengths of punishment.

I think, last I heard, Shelby is now saying she still doesn't know how she tested positive and is accepting her fate and hoping to still have the motivation and talent to compete after her ban.

This and there's something that many of the juvenile, jealous, anonymous posters will never understand- class.

Sometimes you just don't say it. You give a classy answer. Whether she's 100% guilty, absolutely clean or somewhere in between, she's suffering and she was/is his friend.

She either took the ped intentionally or she wasn’t paying close attention to the supplements she was taking. Either way it’s her fault. If you’re going to look for every little advantage, you better know every little rule. She got burned by her own negligence and doesn’t want to own up to it. Her teammates may think it’s unfair and want to support her, still her fault.

100% she was taking "gray area" supplements that aren't strictly regulated, and there was enough nandrolone in them that she popped positive

Has any athlete actually stepped forward against Shelby and condemned her for the presence of nandrolone?

Haven't listened to the podcast, but did read the report.

Before I read the report, I had 3 possibilities in my mind based on the available facts:

1. Shelby doped intentionally using oral pills and mistimed her dose a bit relative to her testing window. Result: big ban.

2. Shelby consumed some tainted supplement (vitamins, protein powder). Plausible enough. Result: a ban, but a shorter ban. Miss the Olympics for sure.

3. Shelby consumed some tainted food such as the infamous burrito. Not very plausible based on reported levels, food/ag system in the US, available literature on dosing in case of boar meat, fact that she didn't order a pork burrito at all. Result: no ban.

As most know, intent or knowledge is not relevant in doping cases. It's only how the substance got there that's important. Evidence or lack thereof will help dictate which argument your legal team is going to go for. I am sure that Shelby's legal team tested all her supplements etc. to see what their options were. An unfortunate possibility here is that since contamination isn't necessarily consistent, they might have missed it if they tested a container/batch other than the one she consumed.

Since 2 was out, they decided to go with 3 even though the evidence here was pretty circumstantial and speculative. There was really no other choice because ignorance isn't a defence. After reading the report it becomes clear that 3 couldn't have happened even if she'd somehow gotten a pure boar burrito because the nandro was synthetic and the amount found would have meant she would have had to consume an unreasonable amount of boar meat.

Though intent isn't relevant in doping, most fans would view a person who got caught on 2 to be ethically/morally innocent. Even though Shelby's team didn't try to argue that one, the report does suggest that the amount found wasn't consistent with contaminated supplement. So while it's true that they might not have been able to test the specific batch of supplements she consumed at the time of the test, it's doubtful that any supplement would be that contaminated.

This, coupled with her sudden progression in her mid/late-20s after several years pro in the same group and doping rumours about her boyfriend at the time makes it hard to believe she is innocent from an ethical standpoint. I can understand why her former teammates and her friends still support her... it can be hard to believe someone close to you was so deceptive.

okay after reading your post, she definitely did #1

If this is true, then it's time that we stop regulating these supplements. The fact that someone taking "some" nandrolone is okay, but someone taking "enough" nandrolone is not is asinine.

When banning supplements, where does that stop? Vitamins A, B, and C are okay, but not Vitamin D?

To paraphrase Pre, it's a completely arbitrary measurement.