why am i so much better at cross country than track

Don't change your training for track, if you're a strength runner, too much speed work ain't going be good for you.

2 possibilities

1 - you can get into a rhythm on XC courses and are strong enough to not feel the hills. Anecdotally, I’d say there are 3 types of courses: grass track, normal (a few hills and some long grass), and tough, and rhythm runners with good strength run best on hills, while those who are somewhat weaker run best in trafitional

2 - no top speed, XC is slow compared to track so you won’t need a sub 51 400 to be competitive

Because you are better at longer distances? That seems like the most obvious answer. Some people are better at shorter distances due to physiology (muscle fiber type for instance) and training focus combo.

makes sense, but not when going from an xc 5k to a track 3k and having people you can beat in an xc 5k kill you in the 3k

5k to 3k doesn’t seem like really a big difference

Excellent answer.

another possibility is that your training is different for track than for XC (of course it is, but maybe it is different in a way that is worse for you- another poster mentioned this).

i do 3k workouts, so like 4x800, 8x400, 1k repeats (all on track) and tempo runs (on road).

in xc we do mile repeats at hilly parks, 1k repeats on grass, sometimes 800s at the park or on the track, and fartleks.

maybe my “3k training” is worse for me, i don’t know.

The other girl is probably asking the question; "why do I get smoked in XC by this one girl, when I am so much faster than her on the track?"

Based on the times you mentioned, it doesn't sound like you're worse at track, just that the other girl is severely underperforming in XC. If she can run 10:17 in the 3k, she should be well under 18 in the 5k.

But then again, some people have more speed and/or they aren't well equipped for the constant disruptions to rhythm, hills and uneven terrain that XC throws up.

Agree. I knew a guy who could run 7:50 for 3k but was essentially a no factor in cross. at least comparatively to guys who he was smoking by 30+ seconds on the track who could run with him in cross.

Running form could play into it. Long striders do worse in track.

That is the bigger issue. She is going from like 5:30s on track to 6:30 in XC. You would expect her to run 5:50s at worst. Probably runs like 20mpw or something. Maybe doesn't run at all over the summer...

while I agree with what you wrote, I'm pretty sure you also don't need a sub 51 400m to be competitive with people running 10:17 in the 3k, or indeed to be competitive in any women's high school track lol

She's trying to make the national 4x400 team obvi.

I think some other posters have it correct that the other girl is the one who is much slower in CC.

But still, you sound like a strength runner - so you are stronger in CC than in track. What does this mean? and how do you overcome this?

It means the longer and the tougher the race the better you will do. I am the opposite in that I always had a great kick - so for me the goal in racing was to just try to stay close. If I could, I would normally beat those I am chasing. but if i get broken (gapped by too much) I would tend to give up - and not finish strong. After losing a few times to strength runners in road races (as short as 2 miles) I realized something strength runners do. The surge and gap me. I was broken by this guy around the mile and gapped big time...but still put on a kick even though I knew I couldn't catch him - guess what? I didn't catch him, but I made up so much ground, I realized he has no kick...the next time we raced I just let him go but tried to stay within range - and beat him easily.

Am I right in assuming that you have no kick - like these other strength runners?

If so, you must learn to be competitive on the track you have to gap people by making surges and such in a race. You will be strongest compared to other runners in the middle of races - so that is when you need to make your moves. So in a 3000 on the track - the moves start for you on lap 4,5,6. The mile will be tough for you, but hammer the 3rd lap.

How should you train? One big problem coaches have when it comes to strength runners is they have you do too much (or even any speed). Speed workouts don't really help you much because they just wear you out - make it harder for you to recover for the next workout. You need to train to your strength by doing tempos and steady state runs:

like 4 miles at a good effort (not a race effort, and maybe starting out moderate and getting faster or practicing surging in the middle)....or longer runs of 6-8 when you just try to hold a solid pace = called steady state. If you cut out speed workout and do these instead and find that it works - then you know that you are a strength runners and that you almost need to avoid speed workouts (you can do some speed, just not making the whole workout speed based).

example of how to incorporate speed for a strength runner: do strides of 50-100 meters after your tempo or steady state. Gradually add a few (2-3) 400s as you get closer to racing season, but never just go from doing no speed to say 8x400 = those kind of workout might sap you. Biggest mistake you could make would be to do what others do by sharping before big meets with speed only based workouts. you don't need these kinds of workouts. Build/Train/Race to your strength.

You may never develop much of a kick - and that is okay, as long as you learn how to win by gapping others before it comes down to the kick. In CC the course is what is helping you gap other runners because they lack the strength to keep pushing after hills, etc. That is where you beat them.

you’re definitely right that i have no kick. another thing about me is i never go out fast. sometimes i’ll start last in a 3k track race with 10 people but be in first at the end. in cross country, when everyone sprints the field, i was the best runner on my team this past season by a lot but they would always go out in front of me. i also fall behind when we do strides.

so last week i did 8x400 and 4x800 as my interval workouts, then a 3 mile tempo. are those intervals really not right for me? they won’t make me better? my goal is a 10:30 3k (times people who are almost the same as me in xc, slightly worse, run) but i literally ran an 11:00 yesterday so i’m not sure how to make that happen.

thanks everyone for the responses so far!

Maybe he didn't read the times or the gender. If you're male, you do need high top speed to be competitive or win NBN

I don't want to say the 400's and 800's won't make you better...but if your coach is open to this idea - because you are a strength runner, I would want you to do them aerobically (meaning not too fast where you are gasping for air). the best way to ensure this is to keep the rest short for you. So for example, taking 60 seconds or less on the 400's. At first this might seem too difficult...but it will help slow you down a little to the proper pace to be able to do them on 1 min rest. By keeping the rest short it more resembles a tempo effort (your heartrate won't be jumping way up and then down as much).

If your coach is having you do these workouts in a group (which is likely) and doesn't want you deviating from the group, you could run slightly more than a 400 - so while the other girls may be taking more time recovering you are still running (maybe doing a 600 or at least jog during the recovery period).

If you can't get either of these options, then just try not to run too fast on the interval days. i know that sounds weird...but learning to just cruise the intervals is the best way for you to do them. You will still be getting all the benefits from the training (if you have ever read any of Jack Daniels stuff) he says you only have to go hard enough to get the stimulus effect to gain from the workout (and most runners are going too hard). One way to tell if runners are going to hard is if they slow down as the workout progresses. The goal should be to hold the pace or even get faster as the workout goes. So that is what I would recommend for you. Say you are doing 8 x400.

1st 400 - run controlled maybe around 90 (just guessing based on your 5K times) 90 sounds slow but is 6:00 mile pace which is way faster than your race pace.

2nd - just slightly faster

3rd - etc

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there is a D1 girl who you remind me of. She often starts almost every race she does in last (espeically on the track). and usually wins in the end. By not going out fast your heart rate doesn't go way up at the start (so that is good). Think of what the other girls are doing. They are going out too fast - then having to slow down because they cannot maintain their pace. You are going out slower because 1) you don't have the speed to go out fast but also 2) because it is more efficient to go out easy. So you should view this as a good thing. you want everyone else going out too fast because it plays into your race plan. If I were racing you (and I have speed/kick) the thing you don't want is for me to go out slow with you - where I just try to set on you because my chances of beating you go up by racing this way.

By the way, the girl I am thinking of is a great steepler...because it is a strength race - like CC. you should seriously look into this race if available in high school or look to run it in college. Don't freak out about the barriers - they aren't that tall and you don't have to be a good hurdler to run the steeple - you just have to learn to efficiently clear the barriers and hold your pace.

I coached a girl in high school who ran 10:50's for 3200. The fact that your are at 11:00 for 3000 tells me you are doing pretty good. and 10:30 for 3k is a legit goal. When I coached hs I had this girl do the normal training (like what your coach is doing and she did fine). It was a few year later I came to realize that she would have probably gotten better with less track workout and more tempos/steady states.

I think just realizing that you are a strength runner and learning how to race this way is going to help you a lot. Continue to go out easy and catch up in the middle. and then focus on gapping girls in the middle of the race. I am guessing your lap splits stay pretty even though out the race and that is good. Or even negative splitting - where your last mile could be faster than your first mile, is a common strategy for strength runners.

Learning how to kick/developing a kick is another thing you could begin to work on. this won't happen over night. but I would suggest you start practicing kicking = by that I mean anytime you run (even on easy days) get the girls running with you to put up the last 400 - doesn't have to be an all out kick - just a gradual increase in your pace. You are doing 2 things: 1) training you mind to finish fast and 2) starting to teach the body how to kick. as you do this more and more you can increase the length of the kick. You want to make a kick become an automatic reaction to the anxiety of the end of the race coming. I am guessing as a strength runner you don't kick and therefore don't think you have one.

you can develop it over time. In fact, almost better than doing strides at the end of workouts that so many coaches have their athletes do, I instead prefer this method because it teaches you how to shift gears even when you don't want to - like on easy/slow days.

curious about what your mile time is.
guessing 5:20's
If you ever do the 4x800, ask your coach to put you second or third - never first. You could do last leg, but you will likely run a faster split in the middle (because of your desire to go out slower). the middle leg works for you because 1) you are racing slower girls 2) they won't blow you out on the first 200...and once you start catching/passing people look out. If they put you last you have to deal with the other girls likely being kickers.