I am pretty sure 23:51 was the Ivy record. I think the likes of many Big East runners have gone under 23:00. I am almost positive Brown coach and Georgetown alum John Gregork ran 22:40 on Van Courtland. I think Pre was 23:20 something along with Lingren.
Sorry Gregorek ran that at the old franklin park
Bill,
I would like to address some of your ill-informed comments directed at Princeton.
1) Paul suffered several long-term injuries at Princeton. He then graduated in June 2002. He decided to attend U of Texas and use the remainder of his eligibility. As I am sure you are aware Ivy-league athletes do not have a 5th year. Therefore you are incorrect in stating that Paul "left the school for UTexas."
2) Ryan Teising was injured indoors last year (and for a good portion of outdoors as well). He was injured, he did not disappear. Injuries are no more common at Princeton than they are at any other competetive college. Some top performers such as Stockard (25:05 VCP, 30:27), Bell (14:13), Colangelo (14:10, 8:13, 8:56), Ordway (30:27), and Baird (4:10, 8:24) were getting the job done all three seasons.
3) I don't know the inns and outs of Josh's situation but I do know that he was having trouble adjusting to college life in general. As far as labelling the 'team dynamic' as his problem, I don't think so. His difficulties may or may not have been aggravated by running. Hopefully he will be ready to train and race in college at some point, he is very talented.
4) As for Hebert, the guy ran 2:27 as a freshmen and earned IC4A honors. He also added a 3:54 his junior year and got back down to 2:28 in the 1000m this past winter. His college career was often interrupted by injury and illness. Nonetheless his prs are not what I would deem those of an athlete 'washed out' in college.
As for Brady, he is great coach. end of story.
Just wanted to try to set the record straight.
Kevin
It just seems to me that the quality of an NC State or a Duke (which arn't national power house's) in running is well beyond a Brown(other Ivy's). And what is this no fifth year thing? How much does that hurt an athlete at an IVY. Without redshirting wouldn't coachs force quick come backs from injuries or illness.....or just general athlete disapointment in running poor times durng a season (beacuse they came back to soon). I do like the idea of an Ivy education, but how much of a shot to my running am I getting if I go to an ivy for 4 years. The people at Ivys I know just don't develop as fast as at other schools, which might be do to location (lots of cold weather) and stress from education (from talking to people and reading other posts)......just reading McArdles log at Dartmouth sounds like he is sick 60% of the year....thats tough to train (tip of my hat to his success). I mean McArdle seemed to have run away with the 3000, 5000 double at indoor Heps (is that how people say it), if he ran those times anywhere else he wouldn't have finished top 2......Also people like Adam Wallace left to improve his running?????? (you can see I liked Dartmouth before, but I think its to cold there for me) How valid are his reasons for jumping (especially dartmouth which is supposed to be the best coached team.)
If you can get into Stanford, Dartmouth or Brown, GO! The running programs are very good, and more importantly the educations are outstanding. I promise you that the experience is about a lot more than networking, as one poster expressed. Please don't even think about going to Ark. or Colo. just for running. Talk with your teachers and your parents, and go visit the schools to which you intend to apply. Talk to the coaches and runners and other students there. Good luck.
you can't run a 5th year at the school you attended undergrad in, but if you go to grad school (you can apply to some lame ass program that is a piece of cake) you can use your 5th year somewhere else.
Eric Carter from Penn State also ran 23:51 at VCP in 1986. I believe he and Merrick share the record.
So no wars are fought, and so I don't dig a hole deeper than I am already in, I like to unilaterally apologize for some comments in my previous post. The original question was about Dartmouth and Brown, and I chose to throw some darts Princeton's way, which was in error. Princeton has a very good distance squad, more consistent probably than Dartmouth's. Yes, Brady has his s--- together.
However, I offer some rationale for my broad brushstrokes. In regards to Morrison, I never saw anywhere that he graduated, all I read was that he was tranferring, and I assumed it was because Princeton wasn't working out. I know he hasn't run for 2 years due to injury. That's my error. In regards to Hebert, I've seen him run since high school and know he is (or was) very talented. You don't have to tell me about the 2:27, I was there. However, since then most of the time I've seen him he has been in street clothes, and the last time I saw him race (Mr. Gallagher may have been in that race) was at the 2001 Golden Spike at Princeton where he ran a time that was slower than what he ran in high school and he just looked beat up. I haven't seen him on many results this year either. In regards to Teising, my question on mystery stems from the fact that after a good freshman year he didn't really run indoors much, and then after a decent 5K at Penn Relays (I was at the results table that night and entered his name in), he did not run at Heptagonals a week later. And yes, there is more than meets the eye with Mr. Palazola because he has his own personal issues, Mr. Gallagher is correct.
The point of my first post, which got lost because I focused a bit on Princeton, was that each Ivy is individually very different (what I called "team dynamic"). Choosing one versus the other may not be as cut and dry as Florida vs. Florida State.
However, back to more important things.
To set the record straight, I checked with Dave Johnson and Merrick from Penn does have the collegiate record with a 23:51 at VCP. He didn't say anything about Eric Carter -- but its likely they do share it. I was trying to stress that the Ivies have been pretty good at distance running, considering how many races are run there. The Heptagonal Championship record is 24:08, not held by Merrick (he ran the 23:51 at 1975 IC4A's).
Also, for those thinking about going to an Ivy, a medical leave is always acceptable for a fifth year. If you are healthy, you have 4 years to complete your 4 seasons. But if you injure yourself or have personal issues to attend to that cause you to miss school (Tora Harris), you can take a 5th year. This is different than other conferences (you can't just redshirt for no reason), but it doesn't mean if you are injured the whole season you lose it.
I would just like to comment on the post about Princeton. First of all, Paul Morrison graduated and is using his eligibility as a grad student at Utexas. Ryan Teising was injured for the first time in his life during Spring Track last year, how mysterious is that? And as for Palazola the kid is just a loser and his definitely still running. Princeton has a great team dynamic and a great coach.
oh looks like there was a second page here, good job gally
you will find a newly printed, princeton diploma on paul morrison's wall. he did graduate from princeton and will attend texas for his 5th and maybe even 6th year, but he was never unhappy with princeton or its coaching.
right. the heps is a great conference to race in. fun times all around. go green. anyway...
so i'm assuming lots of ivy grads are reading this thread, and just in case any of you guys are in shape this fall w/ some vacation time on your hands- the ivy league sends an alumni team to japan to run an ekiden relay from october 8-16. basically, you don't pay for anything, but you've got to qualify for the team by running at the cvs downtown 5k in providence on september 15th and being one of the first 5 or 6 ivy alums to finish. if you're interested in racing to make the team in providence, let me know and i'll get you in touch w/ jack fultz, the team director who sets all this stuff up. it's a great trip and you can't beat the price.
nickerson
That\'s a silly argument. All college educations are not created equal. Classes at Dartmouth or Middlebury (or whatever) are obviously going to be more advanced than those at Podunk Community College or Southeastern Oklahoma State. The students will be (generally speaking) smarter and the professors will (generally speaking) be more distinguished. The college admissions process is certainly not a perfect meritocracy (particularly when athletes and legacies are involved), but there are undoubtedly some colleges and universities which offer a better quality of education than others. This is not to say, of course, that everybody who goes to Yale or Brown is brilliant (far from it) or that everybody who goes to a state school is just average. There are many other factors (money, sports, ethnicity, etc) that influence admissions. But there's no doubt that the average class at Chicago or Swarthmore is more rigourous than the average class at Cal State Chico.
Just happened to note the "no 5th year rule" mentioned. I'm attending Harvard in the fall, and I hadn't heard of this rule. Let me see if I understand...I can redshirt at any point during college, but if I want to run the 5th year, I'm going to have to do it at a non-Ivy school?
Unless I'm mistaken, Ivies require you to use up your eligibility in four years.
Right, so let's say hypothetically, I compete for 3 out of 4 years, then want to go to another school for grad school. Can I run there for a year?
Since you've already been accepted, you won't be needing my letter of recommendation. It was a gamble on your part not to get one as it would have made all the difference (if you didn't quite make the cut). Let me know when you're looking for a job (smile).
Hmmm, letters of recommendation are good, but clarifications of Ivy League eligibility rules are better ;)
That's contestable, but I wish I could help you out on those eligibility rules. Indeed, I shock myself from time to time... I don't know everything.
(In case anybody is wondering, I am being facetious.)
The following is just for those people who just read the last post..
Can anyone help out the Pearl Jammin' Ivy Leaguer???
That's Ivy League Eligibility Requirements??
The Ivy League has a 4 years in 4 rule. You have 4 years to use your 4 years of eligibility, no more, provided you don't either A) quit school for a year (not enrolled) or B) hurt yourself so you can't run. One of my teammates had extra seasons from injury and used them at another school. I think its been well established Paul Morrison is about to do the same. I (believe) that once you arrive at school the clock is ticking, ergo, if you sit there, you lose a year. Sophomores who just show up do not get 4 years, if my memory serves me correctly. Grad school at another school, I would check with the compliance coordinator at Harvard, or Haggerty.