the kenyan age issue

I don't know what it is like about age system in Kenya(or about Kenyan growing ).But women grow earlier than men.So women and men are different matter ,I think.

For example,Yoshiko Ichikawa(Sydney 5000m runner) ran 2:07:81 at 800m back in 1991 when she is junior high school student. If she ran this time last year.She ranked No.8 in Japan last year.So did Miyazaki Azumi(2:28 marathoner who retired while ago) at 1500m with time 4:21 in 1989(which equals NO.12 in Japan last year) and Miwako Yamanaka(WXC long course 4th this year)'s 9:10 back in 1993 which equals Japanese No.8 last year.These things cannot happen in men's events in Japan.

Some junior high school girls can match adult. It's small wonder some of Kenyan girls among countless talent can match adult athletes.And I don't know well,but in Kenya matured women can't continue athletic.But young girls can do athletic ,I heard.

Or Maybe Kenyan's body grow old differently from other falks.Their peak in athletic is said to be tend to be short.

Looking at Kenyans men who came to Japan from high shool,it seems they grew like Japanese.

I can't say anymore trustworth about this matter.

First of all, I think the reference to "Kenyans" is mostly due to their higher representation in races than some of the other countries you've mentioned.

Second, the issue is usually not that the "juniors" on a team are better than their peers, but that there have been documented instances where someone ran as a junior who should have been in the senior race. The argument that "if they're good, what does it matter?" would work if it was applied to all entrants with clear dates of birth. If you're arguing "Why have a junior race at all?", well, I kind of like having a race for youth to finish better than they would in an open race. Might keep them in the sport longer.

Of course there are some very fast junior kenyans out there.

The real problem is when they have no concrete documentation prooving they are juniors and setting junior world records.

At least someone from the US or europe has real documentation.

If our guy ritz was from kenya he might be a junior for a few more years.

Specific instances where a junior has not actually been one? Or even instances where someone "aged" several years rather quickly?

Chew on this: How about if you all quit worrying about what juniors from Kenya or anywhere else for that matter are doing?

Who gives a crap? So what if they get a fast junior. How does that adversely affect what the main goal should be which is to get an American on the medal stand at the Olympics and/or World Championships?

So someone is really 22 or 23 when they say they are 19. SO WHAT!!!

Knower wrote:

Chew on this: How about if you all quit worrying about what juniors from Kenya or anywhere else for that matter are doing?

Who gives a crap? So what if they get a fast junior. How does that adversely affect what the main goal should be which is to get an American on the medal stand at the Olympics and/or World Championships?

So someone is really 22 or 23 when they say they are 19. SO WHAT!!!

If it's an open race who cares. If it's a Junior race than it matters. If he or she is an overaged collegian it matters. There are rules to follow.

I agree with Bureau of Records.

Some people may say such rumor is bad or something,

but if such problem exists,it should be solved.

But

I don't even know this kind of problem really exists.

I haven't heard about this matter other than 'I heard ...' or 'my friend said...' without sources from temporary HNs at this borad.

And you know that kind of information is the most unreliable info in the world.

And 13 or 14 years girls are doing good allegation doesn't have credibility at all as I said.If they are given ideal training condition,some of them(who are both talented and precocious) can do so.(of course Japanese junior high school students are doing very amateur training .)

Maybe we can ask some Kenyans if none here can show reliable info about this matter.Many Kenyans exist on the internet.

A lot of you American gys seem very hung up on this Junior/not junior issue, maybe it is because your system is based around college and performing in adolesence, but the fact is the majority of distnace runners are at their nest in their late twenties, the junior champs are just stepping stnes, they ultimately are insignificant, their worth is paltry compared with senior medals and performances. You need to concentrate on being competitive as a senior and forget about the junior issue.

That's bull. Purely in chronology alone, it's inherently unequal to put people with a few extra years training against others who have those years yet ahead of them. Plus, it is inherently LYING to claim a certain age just to get into an easier race. How about this: if the junior races are so "insignificant," then anyone who has inadequate proof of age has to run in the open race? Sounds fair to me.

I was older than Jackson Kipngog when he kicked my a-- in the 1994 Boston Marathon (he ran 2:08:08 for 3rd, edging me by a scant 11 minutes and a mere 36 places) but this year he has competed competing in the master's division of several Jersey League races, while I'm only 39. His "age" is being examined and may not hold up to scrutiny.

Paul Mbugua was DQ'ed from the Ridgewood Run's master's road mile in May because his accumulated documentation indicated that he was not 40 years old, which he claimed to be. This was reported in "Race Results Weekly."

Paul Mbugua was 34-35 until last year in any race results I saw him in. He has also claimed false addresses to pick money at local tac races in upstate ny. Depending on the race he does his address changes.

I dont care how old people are, but when they are getting money and records for somehthing based on how old they are, it is a disgrace.

Kenyans seem to operate under a system of "smile and act like we're clueless and they'll believe whatever the hell we tell 'em".

The more we move through this charade the less I believe about them.

You can't go judging every Kenyan with the same standards of discretion, there was an American cheated in last years NYC marathon, getting the subway, what if i tuirned round and said 'All Americans are cheats' you'd be pissed, so theres the odd Kenyan around playing the system. The people on this site and they are predominently American who seem to think the world owes them is incredible, and if the Kenyans are beating the Americans they must be cheating. Accept the fact that they are the most naturally talented and hard working athletes on the planet, full stop. There is a world outside the US and on teh European circuit the Kenyans are still the best, regardless of age group, level of competition, whatever, give a little respect rather than looking for ways to put them down.

Patrick Nthiwa, a Kenyan roadie working the US mid-Atlantic and Midwest circuit this year, claims to be 19. I have seem him up close and I think that's a lie. I think he claims to be 19 so he can fly without an adult accompanying him -- he looks like he's 12.

I love the competitiveness and geenral excellence that Kenyans bring to the US races -- both the very top guys like Kimondu and the less celebrated ones schlepping around for $200 at a time. But there's a special three-criterion test I really like to trot out -- when someone:

1 - Willfully

2 - Misrepresents or deceives

3 - To induce a transaction

it's called "fraud." Lying about one's age to get a visa or to hook up with an agent to run professionally meets the criteria.

No one resents getting beaten if the rules are the same for all. We don't like Americans who cheat either. Actually, on this board, it seems like anyone who excels is suspect by SOMEONE. I guess that's one form of equality.

Nobody would be questioning birthdates or ages if they weren't changing (for the same person) from year to year. And I, for one, don't assume "all Kenyans (Africans/citizens of underdeveloped nations - take your pick, but the acronym for the last term borders on the obscene) lie about their age." I do know, and you seem to agree, that the record keeping in some countries does not permit this to be known. Fine; then pick a year/date and stick with it.

BUT, the people whom this board are referring to as not playing fair are the ones who enter different birthdates at different times. Or, their athletic federation does.

Nobody says "kick out the Kenyans." I would say, "Kick out the people that lie to gain an unfair advantage."

The Kenyans have a lot of talented people. That said, their federation willfully sends over age athletes to junior events. Being a third world country many times is the equivalent of a "get out of jail free card" when it comes to being held to certain types of responsibility. Once in a while, check out the pictures of the E. African juniors when the IAAF posts them in the multi-media section of its website. You will see a few that look like juniors, and many more that are definitely over age. Cheating is cheating.