he just needs to do resistance bands and lift heavy. then sprint all out occasionally. how to make that mesh w 110 mile weeks idk
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L\'innoculateur wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
The only thing holding Jakob back from world class 800m speed is faster all out speed which he doesn’t train for.
Jacob is done for the 800m. We can't train for the speed, we have the body and shape for it or not. Training only improve performances.
I disagree. Take a world class sprinter and have him run 100 mpw and I guarantee you he is no longer a world class sprinter. Maybe not even a collegiately competitive sprinter.
Of course world class speed is genetically limited, but so is world class endurance. I’m a 23.high 200m runner during base/XC, but when I get in the weight room and do the proper sprinting work I become a 22 second guy. I was significantly slower than most of those marks during highschool when I never did explosive lifting or short sprint work.
Of course Jakob will never ever be a 45 second 400m man, but 47/48 for a guy who closes in 50-51 sometimes is definitely not unrealistic. Those 400m marks would surely yield a 1:43 or so for Jakob, but as our opinions line up here, Jakob wants to be a world beater. A 1:43.high all out guy usually isn’t a world beater these days. So the venture wouldn’t be worth pursuing.
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noirefuse wrote:
he just needs to do resistance bands and lift heavy. then sprint all out occasionally. how to make that mesh w 110 mile weeks idk
That’s the main problem. It’s gotta be one or the other. The most you can really do while trying to hold onto serious fast twitch muscle is 60-70 mpw, that’s why most pro 800m runners don’t go over that and the majority sit between 40-60.
If it was possible for someone to hold onto world class 400m speed while developing world class 5000m endurance, the 800/1500m WRs would be insanely fast.
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CopperRunner wrote:
I disagree. Take a world class sprinter and have him run 100 mpw and I guarantee you he is no longer a world class sprinter. Maybe not even a collegiately competitive sprinter.
Of course world class speed is genetically limited, but so is world class endurance. I’m a 23.high 200m runner during base/XC, but when I get in the weight room and do the proper sprinting work I become a 22 second guy. I was significantly slower than most of those marks during highschool when I never did explosive lifting or short sprint work.
Of course Jakob will never ever be a 45 second 400m man, but 47/48 for a guy who closes in 50-51 sometimes is definitely not unrealistic. Those 400m marks would surely yield a 1:43 or so for Jakob, but as our opinions line up here, Jakob wants to be a world beater. A 1:43.high all out guy usually isn’t a world beater these days. So the venture wouldn’t be worth pursuing.
I didn’t really believe that distance running inhibits sprinting ability, and I’m not sure that’s the case per se but anecdotally I was a sub-15 guy in college who only managed 55.x splits in the couple 4x400 relays I ran with other distance teammates. Obviously we weren’t very competitive. Four months after graduation I had been lifting and put on about 25 pounds and ran a 53.6 in the open 400 despite no sprinting and only intermittent distance running the past few months. So my sprinting ability vastly improved with no training at all, the only difference was not running much distance and lifting weights/gaining weight. So I’d guess that any distance runner who wanted to improve their pure sprint times could to a pretty decent extent by following a high-pizza diet, stopping any distance training, and lifting some weights.
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kartelite wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
I disagree. Take a world class sprinter and have him run 100 mpw and I guarantee you he is no longer a world class sprinter. Maybe not even a collegiately competitive sprinter.
Of course world class speed is genetically limited, but so is world class endurance. I’m a 23.high 200m runner during base/XC, but when I get in the weight room and do the proper sprinting work I become a 22 second guy. I was significantly slower than most of those marks during highschool when I never did explosive lifting or short sprint work.
Of course Jakob will never ever be a 45 second 400m man, but 47/48 for a guy who closes in 50-51 sometimes is definitely not unrealistic. Those 400m marks would surely yield a 1:43 or so for Jakob, but as our opinions line up here, Jakob wants to be a world beater. A 1:43.high all out guy usually isn’t a world beater these days. So the venture wouldn’t be worth pursuing.
I didn’t really believe that distance running inhibits sprinting ability, and I’m not sure that’s the case per se but anecdotally I was a sub-15 guy in college who only managed 55.x splits in the couple 4x400 relays I ran with other distance teammates. Obviously we weren’t very competitive. Four months after graduation I had been lifting and put on about 25 pounds and ran a 53.6 in the open 400 despite no sprinting and only intermittent distance running the past few months. So my sprinting ability vastly improved with no training at all, the only difference was not running much distance and lifting weights/gaining weight. So I’d guess that any distance runner who wanted to improve their pure sprint times could to a pretty decent extent by following a high-pizza diet, stopping any distance training, and lifting some weights.
There’s a big difference between sprinters and 1500/5000m guys with the effects of training. Jakob is a strength runner and needs to train like one. If he trained like an 800/1500m runner, he would actually become slower over 800m.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
kartelite wrote:
I didn’t really believe that distance running inhibits sprinting ability, and I’m not sure that’s the case per se but anecdotally I was a sub-15 guy in college who only managed 55.x splits in the couple 4x400 relays I ran with other distance teammates. Obviously we weren’t very competitive. Four months after graduation I had been lifting and put on about 25 pounds and ran a 53.6 in the open 400 despite no sprinting and only intermittent distance running the past few months. So my sprinting ability vastly improved with no training at all, the only difference was not running much distance and lifting weights/gaining weight. So I’d guess that any distance runner who wanted to improve their pure sprint times could to a pretty decent extent by following a high-pizza diet, stopping any distance training, and lifting some weights.
There’s a big difference between sprinters and 1500/5000m guys with the effects of training. Jakob is a strength runner and needs to train like one. If he trained like an 800/1500m runner, he would actually become slower over 800m.
Idk about that. 1500m probably would stagnate or get slower, but the idea that Jakob is maxing out his 800m by essentially doing mostly tempo runs and 5k paced intervals is silly. His limiting factor is is his 200/400m speed which you do not train by running aerobically.
The 800m is more anaerobic than aerobic, and becomes moreso anaerobic the faster you get at it. It doesn’t matter how many miles you log, easy or tempo, if you aren’t working speed endurance, lactate tolerance, and anaerobic (deeply sub threshold) endurance, your 800m racing is going to be suboptimal.
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CopperRunner wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
There’s a big difference between sprinters and 1500/5000m guys with the effects of training. Jakob is a strength runner and needs to train like one. If he trained like an 800/1500m runner, he would actually become slower over 800m.
Idk about that. 1500m probably would stagnate or get slower, but the idea that Jakob is maxing out his 800m by essentially doing mostly tempo runs and 5k paced intervals is silly. His limiting factor is is his 200/400m speed which you do not train by running aerobically.
The 800m is more anaerobic than aerobic, and becomes moreso anaerobic the faster you get at it. It doesn’t matter how many miles you log, easy or tempo, if you aren’t working speed endurance, lactate tolerance, and anaerobic (deeply sub threshold) endurance, your 800m racing is going to be suboptimal.
If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
Idk about that. 1500m probably would stagnate or get slower, but the idea that Jakob is maxing out his 800m by essentially doing mostly tempo runs and 5k paced intervals is silly. His limiting factor is is his 200/400m speed which you do not train by running aerobically.
The 800m is more anaerobic than aerobic, and becomes moreso anaerobic the faster you get at it. It doesn’t matter how many miles you log, easy or tempo, if you aren’t working speed endurance, lactate tolerance, and anaerobic (deeply sub threshold) endurance, your 800m racing is going to be suboptimal.
If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
Comparing a runners ability to step down from 5000m to 1500m and 5000m to 800m is one of apples to oranges though. Like I said, 1500m is aerobically dominant, 5000m is aerobically dominant, 800m is anaerobically dominant.
A world class marathon/half marathon guy stepping down and dropping a world class 5k/10k is not surprising and usually to be expected. This is because they tax the same energy systems, despite being 10-20 miles shorter.
A world class 3k/5000m guy dropping down to run world class 400/800m times is unheard of, and Jakob trains like a 3k/5k runner, not a miler.
You also need to understand Farrah trained with a lot more speed than Jakob does. Mo did tons of work at mile/800m pace and even some top end work under NOP, so I don’t think it’s even fair to compare the two in that sense.
Walker and Scott didn’t improve their speed because they couldn’t period, they didn’t because if they improved their speed it would be detrimental to their 1500m endurance, why improve your 400m by 1-1.5 seconds if it costs your 1500m 3-5 because of reduced aerobic fitness and increased body mass?
I must reiterate my point, I guarantee you Jakob is capable of 1:43high to 1:44low if he cut his mileage down to 60, hit weights, plyometrics, and speed work. It just would be a fruitless endeavor, because he’d go from being a world #1 1500/5k guy to a world class but ultimately also ran 800m runner.
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CopperRunner wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
Comparing a runners ability to step down from 5000m to 1500m and 5000m to 800m is one of apples to oranges though. Like I said, 1500m is aerobically dominant, 5000m is aerobically dominant, 800m is anaerobically dominant.
A world class marathon/half marathon guy stepping down and dropping a world class 5k/10k is not surprising and usually to be expected. This is because they tax the same energy systems, despite being 10-20 miles shorter.
A world class 3k/5000m guy dropping down to run world class 400/800m times is unheard of, and Jakob trains like a 3k/5k runner, not a miler.
You also need to understand Farrah trained with a lot more speed than Jakob does. Mo did tons of work at mile/800m pace and even some top end work under NOP, so I don’t think it’s even fair to compare the two in that sense.
Walker and Scott didn’t improve their speed because they couldn’t period, they didn’t because if they improved their speed it would be detrimental to their 1500m endurance, why improve your 400m by 1-1.5 seconds if it costs your 1500m 3-5 because of reduced aerobic fitness and increased body mass?
I must reiterate my point, I guarantee you Jakob is capable of 1:43high to 1:44low if he cut his mileage down to 60, hit weights, plyometrics, and speed work. It just would be a fruitless endeavor, because he’d go from being a world #1 1500/5k guy to a world class but ultimately also ran 800m runner.
I don’t know much about Jakob’s endeavors in the 800m, but he already should be capable of running 1:44. 1:46/3:28 doesn’t seem possible to me.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
I don’t know much about Jakob’s endeavors in the 800m, but he already should be capable of running 1:44. 1:46/3:28 doesn’t seem possible to me.
Precisely. (Same for Lagat 3:26/1:46.)
I get the sense that some see an either/or thing going on if Jakob was ever to get to 1:43. ie If he runs 1:43, he does it at the expense of his cherished 1500m/5000m. Surely one can make significant tweaks to training instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I maintain that 800m is primarily aerobic!! (Maybe a new thread?)
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If Jacob train for the 800m, he could get 1:43 high (maybe) ultimately after one or two years of dedicated training and ideal conditions. Being a consistent 800m runner it's another thing.
Steve Cram was a consistent 1:43 800m runner between 1985-1986, but this didn't ensure him any medal in that distance. He was already running 1:44.45 in 1982, at the same age as Jacob.
Noah NGENY, the world record holder of the 1000m was a 1:44.49 in 2000. Also at the same age as Jacob. But his carrer didn't expand a lot.
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youre dumb bro wrote:
Koko the Gorilla wrote:
You can speculate but at the end of the day, you are what you ran.
And Bernard Lagat ran the 800 many times and he couldn't break 146 for the life of him. And he ran 326. I don't think El Guerrouj would be a whole lot faster nor would Yakob.
This type of thinking is so simplistic. El Guerrouj closed a 1500 in 1:46 whereas Ingebrigtsen ran it in a time trial, but according to you they are both 1:46 guys. El G’s official PB is actually 1:47 so I guess he is slower than Jakob!
"El G was a 1:46 guy"
(and it's never "had a 1:46 PR," it's that he was a "1:46 guy" whatever being a "[time] guy" means)
Yeah, I mean there's no reason to think he was faster than that given he only ran 1:46 DURING A 1500 AT THE OLYMPICS.
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I didn't down vote you on any of our posts until you said "funsies."
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El Guerouj simply avoided racing 800m to not lose as simple as that, learning his predecessors (particularly the one was planning to beat the WR of the 800m in 1988 and that cost him an hamstrings in the Olympics).
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It always bemuses me that a runner without speed can always be assumed to be fast - which the 800 requires - if only he trained for it.
Jakob might beat 24secs over 200m. Certainly not below 23secs - which is what he would require to go below 1.45. (Walker 22.8secs and 1.44.9 respectively).
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my friend in high school who didnt train sprints and ran 440 in the mile ran 23 for 200m. I am sure Jakob could do it. my friend was also 5'3" and not terribly athletic
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Armstronglivs wrote:
It always bemuses me that a runner without speed can always be assumed to be fast - which the 800 requires - if only he trained for it.
Jakob might beat 24secs over 200m. Certainly not below 23secs - which is what he would require to go below 1.45. (Walker 22.8secs and 1.44.9 respectively).
Correction: Walker was 22.7.
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noirefuse wrote:
my friend in high school who didnt train sprints and ran 440 in the mile ran 23 for 200m. I am sure Jakob could do it. my friend was also 5'3" and not terribly athletic
Your not "terribly athletic" friend probably had 4 legs.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
CopperRunner wrote:
Idk about that. 1500m probably would stagnate or get slower, but the idea that Jakob is maxing out his 800m by essentially doing mostly tempo runs and 5k paced intervals is silly. His limiting factor is is his 200/400m speed which you do not train by running aerobically.
The 800m is more anaerobic than aerobic, and becomes moreso anaerobic the faster you get at it. It doesn’t matter how many miles you log, easy or tempo, if you aren’t working speed endurance, lactate tolerance, and anaerobic (deeply sub threshold) endurance, your 800m racing is going to be suboptimal.
If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
But isn't that, Aztec, what Jake Wightman just did to boost his strength to allow him to be able to unleash his (slightly superior to Jakob Ingebrigtsen's) finishing speed?
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