The ultimate point I was trying to make was that the approval of the vaccination for small children was based on sparse, flimsy, and disingenuous data, but so much of this is. As I said, early innings. You keep getting your kids boosters though and trust that the EpiRunners of the world are utterly and completely correct in asserting the safety and efficacy of this vaccine.
"Ok everything I said was BS since I called out... but here... let me pivot to more random speculation."
"It 'feels' correct to my twisted, partisan, brain, so therefore I will get triggered if you don't agree!"
No pivot, just the very first point I was making. Confirmed.
The CDC and FDA have approved the coronavirus vaccine for babies over 6 months and children under five. What do parents need to know before they choose to vaccinate?
Hardly a conspiracy theorist. Just a healthy skeptic. I misspoke when I said antigen instead of antibody, but I stand by the rest.
Changing the word to antibody doesn't make any more sense than antigen. That would mean that you were trying to say "...it can produce spike antigens for up to eight weeks. Antibodies that can quite possibly outcompete innate immunity..."
Oy Vey… we are priming the immune response for one very specific antigen, the S protein. Yeah, I get it, it’s a very “antigenic” protein that contains the RBD so it makes sense, but we are ignoring the multiple epitopes on the viral genome engaged in priming the entire immune cognate, humoral and cell mediated response. We are superpriming the humoral response, and we are far too focused on antibody counts and longevity of said antibodies. Sorry, I just don’t agree. For certain high risk groups, sure. For everyone else, it’s unnecessary. Worse, it could be creating a forest fire. Oh, wait, we don’t have data on that yet.
Changing the word to antibody doesn't make any more sense than antigen. That would mean that you were trying to say "...it can produce spike antigens for up to eight weeks. Antibodies that can quite possibly outcompete innate immunity..."
We are superpriming the humoral response, and we are far too focused on antibody counts and longevity of said antibodies. Sorry, I just don’t agree. For certain high risk groups, sure. For everyone else, it’s unnecessary. Worse, it could be creating a forest fire. Oh, wait, we don’t have data on that yet.
No we aren't.
There are has been tons of working confirming durable memory T cell response and recall.
This is one of your most pervasively, and consistently wrong points. Just because Abs are a good proxy for overall response, and far far cheaper to study in large trials does not mean cell mediate immunity is ignored.
Cell mediated immunity has shown to durable, against conserved epitopes on the spike, and the causative agent in the vaccines protection against severe disease. But that's super inconvenient so you just ignore it!
You try so hard to sound like you know what youre talking about. But you approach to understanding science is solely rooted in confirming your priors and not learning anything. It's a shame.
Changing the word to antibody doesn't make any more sense than antigen. That would mean that you were trying to say "...it can produce spike antigens for up to eight weeks. Antibodies that can quite possibly outcompete innate immunity..."
Oy Vey… we are priming the immune response for one very specific antigen, the S protein. Yeah, I get it, it’s a very “antigenic” protein that contains the RBD so it makes sense, but we are ignoring the multiple epitopes on the viral genome engaged in priming the entire immune cognate, humoral and cell mediated response. We are superpriming the humoral response, and we are far too focused on antibody counts and longevity of said antibodies. Sorry, I just don’t agree. For certain high risk groups, sure. For everyone else, it’s unnecessary. Worse, it could be creating a forest fire. Oh, wait, we don’t have data on that yet.
Wow, so we went from a gross misunderstand of how the immune system works to using words like epitopes and immune cognate?
Who is focused on antibody counts? I'm pretty sure the primary outcome of vaccination is and always has been protection against severe disease and hospitalization. Are antibody counts something we look at? Absolutely. We'd be stupid not to.
And your next cookie cutter argument is going to be "well, kids don't get severe disease anyway". It's true that they get less severe disease than adults, but more kids have died of COVID in two years than died from chickenpox or rubella in the 10 years before those vaccines were released. If those diseases were serious enough to vaccinate against, why not COVID? Neither of those childhood diseases ranked amongst the top causes of death amongst kids, but COVID does.
Cell mediated immunity has shown to durable, against conserved epitopes on the spike, and the causative agent in the vaccines protection against severe disease. But that's super inconvenient so you just ignore it!
Nope, not ignored at all. Cell-mediated immunity against that one very specific antigen, not all of the various antigens in the genome. But it does exist, yes. I’ve conceded that multiple times.
Nope, not ignored at all. Cell-mediated immunity against that one very specific antigen, not all of the various antigens in the genome. But it does exist, yes. I’ve conceded that multiple times.
So if it exists, it's durable, and it's against conserved epitopes... you are just speculating (or hoping) there might be a problem down the road?
I mean... even for you... this is a kinda laughable attempt at causing a ruckus.
Oy Vey… we are priming the immune response for one very specific antigen, the S protein. Yeah, I get it, it’s a very “antigenic” protein that contains the RBD so it makes sense, but we are ignoring the multiple epitopes on the viral genome engaged in priming the entire immune cognate, humoral and cell mediated response. We are superpriming the humoral response, and we are far too focused on antibody counts and longevity of said antibodies. Sorry, I just don’t agree. For certain high risk groups, sure. For everyone else, it’s unnecessary. Worse, it could be creating a forest fire. Oh, wait, we don’t have data on that yet.
Wow, so we went from a gross misunderstand of how the immune system works to using words like epitopes and immune cognate?
Who is focused on antibody counts?
Wow, touché. If immune cognate was accidentally written, what is a “gross misunderstand” other than another grammatical error?
Who is focused indeed? Only you and Harambro2600. Incredibly myopic focus.
Tackle Makary’ op-ed, since that’s where this all started. How we got to approval for young kids.
Even being early 40s, before covid in January I was lifting 5 days a week, running and cycling while getting in probably 30k steps a day and it was just life. Post covid(I barely had a runny nose) if I workout even half-ass I'm dead for days, I've had to nap more in the last two months than the last decade of my life, small insignificant hills on my bike leave me winded...I was vaccinated and boosted when I got it but this absolutely sucks
The mRNA spike factories are still experimental, IN VIVO, if we are calling them vaccines. They are not traditional vaccines. The mRNA is encased in a lipid nanoparticle, which allows it to traverse the entire body to sensitive organs, even into the brain, and it can produce spike antigens for up to eight weeks.
now imagine something that does all of this but MAKES COPIES OF ITSELF. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.
congrats, you just discovered COVID. One day you will give the virus the same melodramatic narration as you do the vaccine.
And your next cookie cutter argument is going to be "well, kids don't get severe disease anyway". It's true that they get less severe disease than adults, but more kids have died of COVID in two years than died from chickenpox or rubella in the 10 years before those vaccines were released. If those diseases were serious enough to vaccinate against, why not COVID? Neither of those childhood diseases ranked amongst the top causes of death amongst kids, but COVID does.
This is an incredible argument that basically forces that “I’m not an antivaxxer, just [insert COVID vaccine fearmongering here]” to admit they are, in fact, just run of the mill antivaxxers.
The article presumes knowledge of what 'long COVID' is, but I don't really have an exact definition for it. Google search gives ambiguous results. I ran my PRs in every distance in 2020 and 1st half 2021, then I got 2 shots of vector vaccine, omicron, 2 shots of mRNA vaccine. As of now I find it difficult to run within 15 minutes of my PB in marathon even though I train about as hard. Should I blame it all on long covid?
Even being early 40s, before covid in January I was lifting 5 days a week, running and cycling while getting in probably 30k steps a daay and it was just life. Post covid(I barely had a runny nose) if I workout even half-ass I'm dead for days, I've had to nap more in the last two months than the last decade of my life, small insignificant hills on my bike leave me winded...I was vaccinated and boosted when I got it but this absolutely sucks
Sorry for your loss if this is true-- maybe the vax & boost made no difference to your outcome... How else to explain so many unvax people with half a day of fever, at most, and some sniffles?
Or maybe the boost made it worse?
Sucks, yeah, but you were at very little "risk" from any of the variants but..
at least you protected grandma? (Who is 80, and just got back from a cruise, while some simps in their 20s are #StillMasking)
Kim Iversen reviews the success of the Biden administration's campaign to vaccinate babies and toddlers against COVID-19.According to the CDC the benefits of...
Oy Vey… we are priming the immune response for one very specific antigen, the S protein. Yeah, I get it, it’s a very “antigenic” protein that contains the RBD so it makes sense, but we are ignoring the multiple epitopes on the viral genome engaged in priming the entire immune cognate, humoral and cell mediated response. We are superpriming the humoral response, and we are far too focused on antibody counts and longevity of said antibodies. Sorry, I just don’t agree. For certain high risk groups, sure. For everyone else, it’s unnecessary. Worse, it could be creating a forest fire. Oh, wait, we don’t have data on that yet.
Wow, so we went from a gross misunderstand of how the immune system works to using words like epitopes and immune cognate?
Who is focused on antibody counts? I'm pretty sure the primary outcome of vaccination is and always has been protection against severe disease and hospitalization. Are antibody counts something we look at? Absolutely. We'd be stupid not to.
And your next cookie cutter argument is going to be "well, kids don't get severe disease anyway". It's true that they get less severe disease than adults, but more kids have died of COVID in two years than died from chickenpox or rubella in the 10 years before those vaccines were released. If those diseases were serious enough to vaccinate against, why not COVID? Neither of those childhood diseases ranked amongst the top causes of death amongst kids, but COVID does.
The mRNA spike factories are still experimental, IN VIVO, if we are calling them vaccines. They are not traditional vaccines. The mRNA is encased in a lipid nanoparticle, which allows it to traverse the entire body to sensitive organs, even into the brain, and it can produce spike antigens for up to eight weeks.
now imagine something that does all of this but MAKES COPIES OF ITSELF. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.
congrats, you just discovered COVID. One day you will give the virus the same melodramatic narration as you do the vaccine.
Lol, the viral replication cycle is 7 days max, and we’ve always had treatments to deal with the virus, subsequent inflammation and thrombotic risk.
Wow, touché. If immune cognate was accidentally written, what is a “gross misunderstand” other than another grammatical error?
Who is focused indeed? Only you and Harambro2600. Incredibly myopic focus.
Tackle Makary’ op-ed, since that’s where this all started. How we got to approval for young kids.
Show me in any COVID thread where I've had any focus other than protection against hospitalization or serious illness. You will not find it.
The point is, Makary’ op-ed undermines the narrative that we absolutely know this vaccine is safe and effective for young children. The CDC official statement is disingenuous at best. Also, you do know the vast majority of these kids who develop serious illness and die have significant comorbidity, right? I mean, you assert you work around them?
Even being early 40s, before covid in January I was lifting 5 days a week, running and cycling while getting in probably 30k steps a day and it was just life. Post covid(I barely had a runny nose) if I workout even half-ass I'm dead for days, I've had to nap more in the last two months than the last decade of my life, small insignificant hills on my bike leave me winded...I was vaccinated and boosted when I got it but this absolutely sucks
I’m really sorry man, but how do you know the vaccine didn’t make it worse? Absolutely everyone I know who is suffering from Covid right now is vaccinated and boosted.
Show me in any COVID thread where I've had any focus other than protection against hospitalization or serious illness. You will not find it.
The point is, Makary’ op-ed undermines the narrative that we absolutely know this vaccine is safe and effective for young children. The CDC official statement is disingenuous at best. Also, you do know the vast majority of these kids who develop serious illness and die have significant comorbidity, right? I mean, you assert you work around them?
If that was the point, then why did you claim I was focused on antibody counts?
Do you know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about? Because you make claims, and when I challenge them, you don't defend them, you just move on to the next one. You've made dozens of claims in this discussion and haven't held strong on any of them. The rural physician thing was ridiculous. Do you even have a source for that?
~66% of pediatric covid deaths had associated comorbidities. That is a majority for sure. How many perfectly healthy kids do you think died of chickenpox? Where do you even get these half-baked arguments?
Makary has a lot of op-eds, which one would you like me to tackle? The one where his argument is that "The vaccines are so good at protecting against death from COVID-19 that those who are immune can feel good about living life without having to worry about becoming severely ill. Vaccines downgrade the infection to a mild seasonal virus – one we must learn to live with for years to come." Strong argument.
There are plenty of reasons not to get vaccinated, and there are certainly plenty of reasons not to put blanket requirements in place. Again, you'll never find a post where I argued for mandates outside of healthcare. I support an organizations right to impose them, but I'm not really a proponent of blanket government mandates. That said, you haven't touched on any of them. You just jump around from talking point to talking point without ever getting to the meat of the issue. You don't have a deep enough understanding of any of them to even have a discussion, let alone defend them.
