Jordan Peterson is a Canadian clinical psychologist, author and psychology professor at the University of Toronto. In this excerpt of his lecture series “Map...
I am in a comparable age range to you (33). My wife and I have been together for 2 years, dated for 3 prior to getting married. My father and mother were married for 35+ years prior to her untimely death several years ago. Both of my siblings are mid-30’s and married; one is having their 10 year anniversary later this year, the other just had their 7th.
I say all that because I’m still new at this whole married thing, but I can tell you a few things I’ve learned:
1) I wish I would have married her sooner because A)it has, to date, been the greatest blessing of my life and B) we have had several miscarriages that have been heart breaking. We both want a family, so the longer it goes without success, the more pressure you feel internally to race against the clock.
2) The beauty of marriage has been so vastly under-appreciated by our generation. To be somewhat crude and blunt: what do you call a 25 year old man at a club looking for women on a weekend night? Pretty normal. What do you call a 45 year old man at a club looking for women on a weekend night? Kind of sad.
3) I saw my dad in the hospital room with my mom for months wanting so desperately to have the tables turned so he could take on her pain. I have seen the change in him in the years since her passing. He is a part of what he used to be; the whole was only made whole through his relationship with her. And for all the pain I’ve seen him go through, he would be the first to tell you this: he wouldn’t trade a moment of what he had with her for a moment without the pain.
4) In light of #3, I came to see from my parents relationship that your marriage is worth as much as the effort and work you put into it. “Easy”, “passionate”, “love at first sight” type scenarios usually last a few weeks to months. Compatible people last for years.
5) The work and sacrifice of marriage is (a large part) of what makes it meaningful. Your life isn’t yours anymore the day you say “I do”. Well, if you want a good, lasting, successful marriage that is. The ones that work usually involve two things: you looking out for their best interest, and your spouse looking out for yours. That pattern of somewhat self denial for the prospect of helping another is not always easy. But it’s so worth it. To use an analogy that puts it into running terms: what if your lifetime PR for a 5k came from the very first one you ever did off just a few weeks of running? Do you think that would mean as much as a PR that was 5, 6, 10 years in the making? The work, the sacrifice, and the pain experienced therein along the way is what makes the good such a thing to savor.
i don’t say any of this to “preach” to you. Just trying to offer some perspective and opinions informed by my life and experiences since you are asking for some feedback.
Ultimately, my thought is this: do you want to be married? That will involve sacrifice, but we have a few millennia of human experience to back up that the meaning for your life such a relationship provides is surpassed by few others.
Or do you want to always have an “out” in relationships by dating whoever comes along that’s new and exciting? That, too, involves sacrifice. You will sacrifice your ability to have the same kind of meaningful relationship otherwise afforded by marriage. We have a few decades of proponents that this is bearable and in some cases desirable, yet society somehow seems to have only gotten less satisfied with the gift of living the more devoid of meaning we have arbitrarily made our relationships, let alone our most relationships.
If you need an experiment to test that statement in its extremes: talk to a 90 year old couple who have been married for 60+ years and ask them how fulfilling their life has been, how much a part of it their spouse has contributed to etc… then go talk to a 30 year old who had 2 different Tinder dates this past weekend. Compare their answers and you will likely find it informative. One of these situations will involve someone effectively saying, “I chose to stay and so did they and that made all the difference.” The other will involve someone saying, “I left every time I got a better offer.”
Finally, if you can, I would encourage you to watch the above, linked YouTube video. It’s less than 6 minutes long but offers a pretty concise message as it relates to some of the factors that make marriage so darn meaningful (for the better or worse). Regardless, all the best to you as you look to sort this out.
Quick clarification because I inadvertently worded that weird while sitting at the vets office (sick pup on my hands): my wife and I have been together 5 years… we dated for 3 and have been married for 2.
I appreciate all the answers so far. Especially the one above, I have to say. Thank you so much for taking the time and for your valuable advice.
Yes, I am a selfish man prone to make mistakes. But I don't want to make them. If I had a button I could press every time there's temptation to shut me down, I would.
My soon to be wife is not boring, no, and I am not framing her in this way. I am sorry if being realistic that every long relationship has ups and downs and we're in a down moment where routine just took over excitement. Both of us are responsible. And I tend to believe every relationship is like this. For you judging me on that perspective, I envy you for having a relationship where the excitement and "fire" can last forever. Well done.
I appreciate all the women perspectives here, however let me say this. Love is sacrifice. There's temptation everywhere and it is very hard to remain faithful. Of course I believe it is possible but it is just very hard. I can't say how hard is for women, I can only speak as a man. I think for women is hard too and I won't compare because It would be unfair of me to do so. We like new things. We like adventures. We like flirting. We like people liking us. We like excitement. We like the thrills. We're just humans and if we could just press a button and not naturally like all these things, avoiding temptation would be much easier. It is not and that's why I say love is sacrifice. In a way I am sorry for just being a human unable to press the shut down button. All of these are not justifications to do what I've done.
With that said I am obviously experiencing a rollercoaster of emotions but today I can see things a lot clearer. It is obvious what I need to do. It is just very hard to do it and beat the temptation which has already beaten me once.
It is clear what I need to do, I gotta choose love over thrills.
Also, I wish you all judging me could feel a little bit of the regret pain that I feel. Just a little bit. Maybe you'd realize I am not that bad of a person as some of you seem to judge.
So does that mean you're going to let your wife-to-be know about the girl you sort of just fell for, and texted with, and kissed? Or does 'choosing love' mean keeping that part to yourself?
I appreciate all the answers so far. Especially the one above, I have to say. Thank you so much for taking the time and for your valuable advice.
Yes, I am a selfish man prone to make mistakes. But I don't want to make them. If I had a button I could press every time there's temptation to shut me down, I would.
My soon to be wife is not boring, no, and I am not framing her in this way. I am sorry if being realistic that every long relationship has ups and downs and we're in a down moment where routine just took over excitement. Both of us are responsible. And I tend to believe every relationship is like this. For you judging me on that perspective, I envy you for having a relationship where the excitement and "fire" can last forever. Well done.
I appreciate all the women perspectives here, however let me say this. Love is sacrifice. There's temptation everywhere and it is very hard to remain faithful. Of course I believe it is possible but it is just very hard. I can't say how hard is for women, I can only speak as a man. I think for women is hard too and I won't compare because It would be unfair of me to do so. We like new things. We like adventures. We like flirting. We like people liking us. We like excitement. We like the thrills. We're just humans and if we could just press a button and not naturally like all these things, avoiding temptation would be much easier. It is not and that's why I say love is sacrifice. In a way I am sorry for just being a human unable to press the shut down button. All of these are not justifications to do what I've done.
With that said I am obviously experiencing a rollercoaster of emotions but today I can see things a lot clearer. It is obvious what I need to do. It is just very hard to do it and beat the temptation which has already beaten me once.
It is clear what I need to do, I gotta choose love over thrills.
Also, I wish you all judging me could feel a little bit of the regret pain that I feel. Just a little bit. Maybe you'd realize I am not that bad of a person as some of you seem to judge.
Thank you again for all the supportive answers.
No problem! Man, we are all human.
Guilt is a weird thing at times but in this case, see it for what it is: you feel guilty because the relationship you have with the woman you will potentially marry actually does mean something to you. Otherwise, why care?
Your concern/guilt for your actions or desires don’t make you a terrible human. They are evidences that you are human.
If I could encourage you to do one thing it would be this: find someone you trust that you can talk to about this. Turning to a running message board is good to get some varying, anonymous perspective. But it also allows you the ability to separate yourself from owning the challenges you are facing.
Talk to your father, mother, brother, friend, pastor, professor… someone in your life that you are close to about your struggles. You have to be willing to confront, own, and take responsibility for your own humanity if you want someone else to do the same for the rest of their lives (ie part of what marriage entails).
One of the most difficult conversations I ever had was with my mother about the depression I was going through years ago. But opening up about it helped me begin to navigate through it.
A close second to that conversation was when I finally talked to my now-wife about those struggles of prior years. I worried she’d find out and run. She’d go find someone better who didn’t have all the issues I have had and/or still do.
But she didn’t. She stayed. She understood. That’s part of how and why I knew I could spend my life with her. I trusted her, in that I trusted she would not run when she encountered the worst things possible in my own character.
I am not saying whether you should or should not get married to the woman you’ve dated for years. What I am saying is that IF you struggle with this type or thing, you have to learn how to talk to her about those struggles. And you have to learn to start owning the responsibility for taking those struggles on head-on.
Because a ring on your finger won’t make you any less susceptible to wanting to find some grand adventure with some other woman. It will only serve as a reminder of the woman who knows the darkest corners of your heart and chooses to stay and love you anyways.. and THAT has some power to it that can help keep you from acting out on those weaknesses.
I'm shook nobody has mentioned the so-called "post nuptial shut off" yet. Anyway, the only way to avoid it is to stay in a pre nuptial phase indefinitely. Do with this info what you will
we're together for 5+ years and wedding scheduled to happen early next year. I love her and our life story, but reality is we live together for quite a while now (3+ years) and we're in a kind of tedious phase. She's a runner, she has a good job, she's nice and all and we get along very well, really. Just no surprises anymore. Just routine.
i fell badly for one person that I met in a flight two weeks ago, spent hours talking with and continued since them. Just chatting via text. She doesn't live in the same city but would be realistic to date her if I was not committed (easy short flight). She has pretty much the same age of my current partner (both 30). She knows I am committed to someone as I told her after a few hours during the flight (but not that I am getting married). She's very respectful but she admitted she likes me a lot and doesn't know what to do either.
it is a very complicated situation and I know many of you have experienced something similar.
it is hard, and unfair even, to compare the love you feel for your long term partner and the attractiveness of an adventure -- or more than an adventure I should say, now a person that I know reasonably well and sincerely like.
i know what is the "right thing to do". Eliminate this new woman from my life and focus on the wedding and then raising a family with my long-term partner.
but if I am honest to myself -- this is not what I sincerely want to do. I've been thinking of many crazy scenarios in my head including ending the relationship and wedding plans, which rationally, I know it is crazy.
you can judge me but as the plane landed me and this other woman kissed, which made 50% of me feel absolutely terrible afterwards, and the other 50% wanting more. I was not going to admit this here because I know many will judge me, and maybe I am just a terrible person, but it was stronger than me. Maybe I am just very weak and can't hold to the values I speak of.
we apologized to each other but can't control the texting since then.
it has been very very difficult and I am in serious pain with the dilemma "desperately want to do" x "rationally should do".
I will not judge you, but I WILL tell you what you should do and WHY you should do it, and I will do so to prevent heartache down the road for you, but mostly for your wife-to-be.
1) You should call off the wedding, and the sooner the better. If at age 35 you are still wanting "surprises", you are too immature to get married. Surprises are for children. Living with her got tedious in 3 years? Dude, you are not husband material. This doesn't make you a bad guy (I told you I wouldn't judge you), but it is clear you are not ready to get married...not today, perhaps not ever.
2) If we ignore the observation I have of your behavior and just focus on what you SAID about getting married and raising a family with the woman you been with which was, "this is not what I sincerely want to do," then just on that ALONE you should not get married. It's not what you want to do. Period. she's 30. You are 35. If you want to have children (especially PLURAL), then you would want/need to get going on having her pop those out pretty damn soon after getting married. That is a recipe for disaster...you feel obligated to get married to her but you don't want to, then soon after you have a couple of kids that you don't even want. It will end in divorce almost for sure...and then you or she (probably she since you don't want to be bothered by raising any kids) is left to be a single parent. Don't do that to her. MUCH better to end it now.
3) Now, am I telling you to end your marriage to go pursue this woman on the plane? Absolutely not. You barely know her. It's VERY easy to be enthralled with someone when you aren't in your real life, and traveling on a plane takes both of you away from your real life, even if you weren't in an exotic location or on a vacation. Date the woman from the plane if you want to, but definitely do NOT end your upcoming marriage TO date her. The only way the woman from the plane is important is that she helped you realize you are not ready to get married. 30-year-old women don't date for years. So, suppose you end your engagement tomorrow and start dating this plane woman by this next weekend. Are you prepared to want to marry her in another year? Chances are that she will also likely want to get married and have children. What I'm telling you here is that you don't have another 5-years of dating someone else ahead of you...unless you decide you do NOT want children and you find a partner who feels the same (and maybe you will find that).
Anyway, the important part is you are not ready to get married, and if you do, you are very likely to have that marriage end in divorce, perhaps with little kids involved. That's not fair to them or your current bride-to-be. Sometimes the truth sucks. It will likely hurt her to end the engagement. It would be WORSE to leave her as a single mother in a few years.
Flagpole has easily given the best advice on this thread.
So does that mean you're going to let your wife-to-be know about the girl you sort of just fell for, and texted with, and kissed? Or does 'choosing love' mean keeping that part to yourself?
the honest answer is probably not. If I can swallow the regret and blame on my own, I will. Would it be fair to let her know, probably. Would it be the best decision for our wedding and hopefully future family, certainly not.
I guess it depends of how committed I can be to her from now own. If I can be fully faithful, and I'll certainly try hard - I should be stronger after all I am feeling, then I should swallow that and take it to my tomb with me. So I have to believe that was a super bad accident and a lesson for me to learn the hard way and honor our commitment from now on.
Yea so what's actually happening here is you were conflicted when you made this thread, but you were ready to jump ship. Re-read it for yourself, that is obvious. Then, some people called you out for your a$$hole-ish behavior, and now you feel more guilty but don't want to follow through with bailing on your engagement because it's the harder choice.
Dude, you do not sound like a guy who is ready for marriage. You NOT telling your fiancee about this whole thing is just continued crappy, selfish behavior. Anyone telling you otherwise on here is placating you.
For what’s it worth, here’s 2 cents from someone who knows he’s a POS.
Married my wife after 10 months. Most beautiful women I’d ever met let alone bedded. Had some doubts when wedding arrived as always was well liked by opposite sex but completely faithful save one drunken kiss on a work trip while dating like you.
She got pregnant and I got offered a better job in a new location. She said no to us moving. That changed me completely.
Was depressed instead of excited when she was pregnant. She started spending nights away with her family and when in my presence talking down to me when I was still giving my best.
2 months after the baby was born I was sent on a work trip and decided to just say F it and embrace temptation. Since then I cheat while away like it’s a sport and I’m Michael Jordan. Sometimes the guilt is there. Sometimes not at all and I’m thrilled with my careless attitude.
I love my kids. Real love that makes my heart beat. My wife’s a decent person but annoying a lot and hasn’t allowed me to fully develop my career and own dreams.
These threads are great because they show different life experiences and beliefs but in the end it’s you OP who should decide what type of life you want to live and what time of man you want to be. We only get one chance on this spinning rock.
Yea so what's actually happening here is you were conflicted when you made this thread, but you were ready to jump ship. Re-read it for yourself, that is obvious. Then, some people called you out for your a$hole-ish behavior, and now you feel more guilty but don't want to follow through with bailing on your engagement because it's the harder choice.
Dude, you do not sound like a guy who is ready for marriage. You NOT telling your fiancee about this whole thing is just continued crappy, selfish behavior. Anyone telling you otherwise on here is placating you.
You are right. That I am extremely conflicted, it is obvious. I know my behavior was really bad. I do feel guilty. I've decided to do the right thing and finish with this situation. I'll speak with the woman from the flight via video, sincerely apologize for everything and make it clear that we both need to be back to real life.
It's called a "crush." You're in lust not in love. If people broke off relationships or marriages for this no one would stay together. Cut it out, this too will become a "routine" relationship as well. They all do.
Time will pass and you will forget her or maybe not but it won't feel so intense.
I will not judge you, but I WILL tell you what you should do and WHY you should do it, and I will do so to prevent heartache down the road for you, but mostly for your wife-to-be.
1) You should call off the wedding, and the sooner the better. If at age 35 you are still wanting "surprises", you are too immature to get married. Surprises are for children. Living with her got tedious in 3 years? Dude, you are not husband material. This doesn't make you a bad guy (I told you I wouldn't judge you), but it is clear you are not ready to get married...not today, perhaps not ever.
2) If we ignore the observation I have of your behavior and just focus on what you SAID about getting married and raising a family with the woman you been with which was, "this is not what I sincerely want to do," then just on that ALONE you should not get married. It's not what you want to do. Period. she's 30. You are 35. If you want to have children (especially PLURAL), then you would want/need to get going on having her pop those out pretty damn soon after getting married. That is a recipe for disaster...you feel obligated to get married to her but you don't want to, then soon after you have a couple of kids that you don't even want. It will end in divorce almost for sure...and then you or she (probably she since you don't want to be bothered by raising any kids) is left to be a single parent. Don't do that to her. MUCH better to end it now.
3) Now, am I telling you to end your marriage to go pursue this woman on the plane? Absolutely not. You barely know her. It's VERY easy to be enthralled with someone when you aren't in your real life, and traveling on a plane takes both of you away from your real life, even if you weren't in an exotic location or on a vacation. Date the woman from the plane if you want to, but definitely do NOT end your upcoming marriage TO date her. The only way the woman from the plane is important is that she helped you realize you are not ready to get married. 30-year-old women don't date for years. So, suppose you end your engagement tomorrow and start dating this plane woman by this next weekend. Are you prepared to want to marry her in another year? Chances are that she will also likely want to get married and have children. What I'm telling you here is that you don't have another 5-years of dating someone else ahead of you...unless you decide you do NOT want children and you find a partner who feels the same (and maybe you will find that).
Anyway, the important part is you are not ready to get married, and if you do, you are very likely to have that marriage end in divorce, perhaps with little kids involved. That's not fair to them or your current bride-to-be. Sometimes the truth sucks. It will likely hurt her to end the engagement. It would be WORSE to leave her as a single mother in a few years.
Flagpole has easily given the best advice on this thread.
I don't know if this helps, but I've known my fiancée since I was in high school. I had a big crush on her in college, but never asked her out and we eventually both left our hometown for other opportunities.
I met my ex-wife, got married, had kids, and moved back to my hometown 11 years after I left. She and I had mutual friends, ran around in the same social circles and became friends. I drove her daughter to school for a few months, eight years ago and when I met the girl I thought, "She should have been mine." It was an odd thought.
My ex-wife and I split 5 years ago and my fiancée and her ex divorced last year. We met up for drinks one night last July and have been inseparable ever since.
On the flipside, my fiancée was engaged to a guy her senior year of college, let an old high school flame talk her out of getting married, and then dumped her almost immediately. She dated another dips--t we went to high school with, married him quickly, and filed for divorce about 4 months in.
She met the father of her kids about a year later... he has the personality of a doorknob, but he treated her well and she got married. It wasn't a happy marriage, I could see that from across the room at birthday parties, and he ended up cheating on her with the back-up singer of the band he was in.
For a long time she regretted breaking things off with her college sweetheart, buy it eventually led to us reconnecting and getting together.
Whatever you do, you might regret. Talk to your current partner and clear the air. If the relationship is salvageable, then work on it. If it isn't, then move on.
we're together for 5+ years and wedding scheduled to happen early next year. I love her and our life story, but reality is we live together for quite a while now (3+ years) and we're in a kind of tedious phase. She's a runner, she has a good job, she's nice and all and we get along very well, really. Just no surprises anymore. Just routine.
i fell badly for one person that I met in a flight two weeks ago, spent hours talking with and continued since them. Just chatting via text. She doesn't live in the same city but would be realistic to date her if I was not committed (easy short flight). She has pretty much the same age of my current partner (both 30). She knows I am committed to someone as I told her after a few hours during the flight (but not that I am getting married). She's very respectful but she admitted she likes me a lot and doesn't know what to do either.
it is a very complicated situation and I know many of you have experienced something similar.
it is hard, and unfair even, to compare the love you feel for your long term partner and the attractiveness of an adventure -- or more than an adventure I should say, now a person that I know reasonably well and sincerely like.
i know what is the "right thing to do". Eliminate this new woman from my life and focus on the wedding and then raising a family with my long-term partner.
but if I am honest to myself -- this is not what I sincerely want to do. I've been thinking of many crazy scenarios in my head including ending the relationship and wedding plans, which rationally, I know it is crazy.
you can judge me but as the plane landed me and this other woman kissed, which made 50% of me feel absolutely terrible afterwards, and the other 50% wanting more. I was not going to admit this here because I know many will judge me, and maybe I am just a terrible person, but it was stronger than me. Maybe I am just very weak and can't hold to the values I speak of.
we apologized to each other but can't control the texting since then.
it has been very very difficult and I am in serious pain with the dilemma "desperately want to do" x "rationally should do".
Hi Jamin! (Or is this the Magic Wizard?)
In all seriousness, if this is legit, I commend your honesty but the key is communication. I would re-evaluate this and maybe go to marriage counseling (even if you're not married yet). Find a good therapist and go from there.
I am in a comparable age range to you (33). My wife and I have been together for 2 years, dated for 3 prior to getting married. My father and mother were married for 35+ years prior to her untimely death several years ago. Both of my siblings are mid-30’s and married; one is having their 10 year anniversary later this year, the other just had their 7th.
I say all that because I’m still new at this whole married thing, but I can tell you a few things I’ve learned:
1) I wish I would have married her sooner because A)it has, to date, been the greatest blessing of my life and B) we have had several miscarriages that have been heart breaking. We both want a family, so the longer it goes without success, the more pressure you feel internally to race against the clock.
2) The beauty of marriage has been so vastly under-appreciated by our generation. To be somewhat crude and blunt: what do you call a 25 year old man at a club looking for women on a weekend night? Pretty normal. What do you call a 45 year old man at a club looking for women on a weekend night? Kind of sad.
3) I saw my dad in the hospital room with my mom for months wanting so desperately to have the tables turned so he could take on her pain. I have seen the change in him in the years since her passing. He is a part of what he used to be; the whole was only made whole through his relationship with her. And for all the pain I’ve seen him go through, he would be the first to tell you this: he wouldn’t trade a moment of what he had with her for a moment without the pain.
4) In light of #3, I came to see from my parents relationship that your marriage is worth as much as the effort and work you put into it. “Easy”, “passionate”, “love at first sight” type scenarios usually last a few weeks to months. Compatible people last for years.
5) The work and sacrifice of marriage is (a large part) of what makes it meaningful. Your life isn’t yours anymore the day you say “I do”. Well, if you want a good, lasting, successful marriage that is. The ones that work usually involve two things: you looking out for their best interest, and your spouse looking out for yours. That pattern of somewhat self denial for the prospect of helping another is not always easy. But it’s so worth it. To use an analogy that puts it into running terms: what if your lifetime PR for a 5k came from the very first one you ever did off just a few weeks of running? Do you think that would mean as much as a PR that was 5, 6, 10 years in the making? The work, the sacrifice, and the pain experienced therein along the way is what makes the good such a thing to savor.
i don’t say any of this to “preach” to you. Just trying to offer some perspective and opinions informed by my life and experiences since you are asking for some feedback.
Ultimately, my thought is this: do you want to be married? That will involve sacrifice, but we have a few millennia of human experience to back up that the meaning for your life such a relationship provides is surpassed by few others.
Or do you want to always have an “out” in relationships by dating whoever comes along that’s new and exciting? That, too, involves sacrifice. You will sacrifice your ability to have the same kind of meaningful relationship otherwise afforded by marriage. We have a few decades of proponents that this is bearable and in some cases desirable, yet society somehow seems to have only gotten less satisfied with the gift of living the more devoid of meaning we have arbitrarily made our relationships, let alone our most relationships.
If you need an experiment to test that statement in its extremes: talk to a 90 year old couple who have been married for 60+ years and ask them how fulfilling their life has been, how much a part of it their spouse has contributed to etc… then go talk to a 30 year old who had 2 different Tinder dates this past weekend. Compare their answers and you will likely find it informative. One of these situations will involve someone effectively saying, “I chose to stay and so did they and that made all the difference.” The other will involve someone saying, “I left every time I got a better offer.”
Finally, if you can, I would encourage you to watch the above, linked YouTube video. It’s less than 6 minutes long but offers a pretty concise message as it relates to some of the factors that make marriage so darn meaningful (for the better or worse). Regardless, all the best to you as you look to sort this out.
I'm 38 and will get married in 1 month. Thanks for the good post. I have known her 6 years and have been engaged 2.5 years.
So true about the marriage roles not being for the younger generation, and/or people are getting married later in life.