Ok I will just say what everyone is too afraid to say. Nyonsaba is simply too manly looking, which introduces this huge reaction everytime he/she runs, ruining otherwise quality women's distance events. Regardless of whether she is built like a bull or a doe underneath those loose shorts she wears, it would be more tolerable if she at least looked like a woman
Ok I will just say what everyone is too afraid to say. Nyonsaba is simply too manly looking, which introduces this huge reaction everytime he/she runs, ruining otherwise quality women's distance events. Regardless of whether she is built like a bull or a doe underneath those loose shorts she wears, it would be more tolerable if she at least looked like a woman
No, it would only be tolerable if she did not possess testes.
I have a lot of sympathy for Niyonsaba, whereas I have zero sympathy for trans women trying to compete in elite sport.
If you were born without male genitalia, it would be natural to assume you were female. In reality, she is intersex, but 100 years ago, no one likely would know that as we wouldn't know her chromosones, her testoerone levels or her lack of a uterus.
Agree on the first point, to second point possible but not likely, people were aware of these situations all the way back literally to biblical times (see Matt 19), eventually her condition would be understood and addressed. Many different historical cultures would find employ intersex people into specific roles taylored to the circumstance.
Run Ragged wrote " Maybe 40-100 years ago, some men like you "would just think that 'woman' was more 'masculine' than the others" - but lots of women wouldn't. A great many of the world's women believe there's a vast world of difference between masculine, butch and stone butch women and males with the kinds of disorders of male sex development that Semenya and Niyonsaba have. We also know that whilst athletes like Semenya and Niyonsaba are often described in the press as "women with hyperandrogenism," they are actually nothing like females with that condition." This is true. I'm a woman, and I find it very easy to see that these individuals are male. I had no doubts about any of them and there are a few other people popular in mainstream media whom I suspect are born male too but portray themselves as female. Apart from the body, its evident from the brow shape, brow height, jaw, nasal root, and Adam's Apple. Then in the body, just a glance at the bone shape of the shoulders (not the muscular development) can tell you whether somebody is male or female. The voice is also a giveaway. Niyonsaba used to look like a typical teenage/early twenties boy to me. He know looks like a typical male-mid twenties male. No way could I mistake them, Wambui, Semenya or Mboma for being female even if I saw them for the first time.
My impression, and the impression of many other women I have discussed this with over the years, is that women are generally extremely adept at accurately telling the sex of other human adults and adolescents. I believe we're much better at it than men are.
The ability to be able to determine the sex of other human adults and adolescents, and to do so very quickly, is one of the self-protective skills girls and women rely on to help us stay safe. As the physically slower, weaker, smaller, less explosive and less powerful sex, we have far less of a chance of successfully defending ourselves or getting away if a man or teenage boy attacks us.
But it's more than that. Because most males are heterosexual - and many men and adolescent boys are sexually aggressive and always on the prowl; some are prone to intrusive, abusive and even violent behaviors ranging from leering, catcalling and voyeurism to "copping a feel" and flashing to stalking, menacing and rape; and many boys and men do not see female humans as worthy of the same basic respect and courtesy they think males deserve as a matter of course - when girls and women go about our daily lives and move through the world, we get targeted and preyed on by men and boys in ways, and with a frequency, that males do not experience.
Beyond the fact that females face a much higher risk of being preyed upon and abused sexually by men and boys than males face, once females reach puberty and for about the next 40 years, we also can become pregnant. This makes us vulnerable in cases of sexual assault in a profound, and profoundly terrifying way, that males never experience - and which many males can't imagine and never take into consideration. Whilst it's true that some men and boys rape others of their own sex - particularly in certain settings like in male prisons - for men and boys who are raped, their rape trauma is never compounded by the dread and horror that comes from knowing that rape might have left them pregnant. After a sexual assault, males never have to follow-up going through the forensic exams used to compile a "rape kit" by taking pregnancy tests in the days or weeks that follow. They never have to deal with the emotions and ethical dilemmas that female rape victims must cope with a post-assault pregnancy test is positive.
For these and other reasons, I think women's ability to be able to correctly assess and guess the sex of other human adults and adolescents, and to be able to do so very quickly and without much conscious thought, should be seen as a "sixth sense" and regarded in a positive light, as a strength. But in the controversies over athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui - and now Mboma and Masilingi too - this finely-tuned and probably at lest partly instinctual sense that most women possess has been used against us. Women who immediately and intuitively can tell that athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba and Wambui are males and who have had the audacity to say so aloud (like Lyndsey Sharpe) have been lambasted as sexist, racist bigots full of misogynoir. Instead, we're all expected to stand by and politely and silently smile and nod as though we believe the party line and total lie that said athletes are merely "women with naturally high testosterone" - or they are "intersex" women with mysterious medical conditions affecting female development, anatomy and physiology that are so unfathomable that even in the age of advanced medical knowledge and testing, no one earth has figured these conditions out yet, and never will.
Worse, for knowing the difference between males with DSDs like Semenya and Niyonasaba and females who happen to butch, masc or "gender nonconforming" - and women who truly do have "hyperandrogenism" chronically and high testosterone temporarily due to female-only conditions such as PCOS and pregnancy - we are told we are have a colonialist white supremacist mindset that causes us to judge other women through the lens of racist white European beauty standards.
Meanwhile, Semenya, Niyonsaba et al get lionized in the global media as civil rights champions, and celebrated as national heroes in their home countries - countries where the lives of actual women and girls are made unduly difficult due to widespread sexist discrimination and abuse, lack of contraception and female health care, and high rates of such problems as menstrual shaming, "period poverty," forced marriage of girls, teenage pregnancy and motherhood, pregnancy-related mortality and disability, and "corrective rape" and murder of girls and women thought to be lesbians or viewed as "too sporty." Semenya especially is constantly held up as a sterling example who epitomizes and represents the kind of "strong black African women" who've been able to shine and prosper in the post-colonial era, particularly since the end of apartheid. When the reality is, the massive amounts of money, resources, time and attention devoted to supporting, promoting and celebrating XY DSD athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba, Wambui, Mboma and Masilingi has done real damage to all the female runners in those athletes' home countries who never got a chance to have careers in athletics because they weren't born with testes. And when the reality is, female people who appear butch or masculine in countries like South Africa, Burundi and Namibia are scorned and bullied by both sexes - and they are raped, assaulted and murdered by men and boys in high numbers.
Clearly Niyonsaba is much closer to women times than men times. She is probably in the category where she needs to be.
Wow, when I was a below average Division 1 male runner, my times were about the same as the women's world records. I guess I should have been running the women's "category", where I needed to be.
Clearly Niyonsaba is much closer to women times than men times. She is probably in the category where she needs to be.
Wow, when I was a below average Division 1 male runner, my times were about the same as the women's world records. I guess I should have been running the women's "category", where I needed to be.
She has no business out there vs women, where is the common sense at?
She can be who she is but she simply can't compete in sports vs women.
She is exactly where she should be in athletics. So many of you snowflakes melt and are so threatened by a woman like Francine, probably partly because she is a better athlete than most of you guys.
One of the most troubling aspects of the reporting of the DSD athletes such as Semenya, Niyonsaba, etc. is that they are frequently referred to by serious media outlets as 'women with naturally high testosterone', 'women with a dsd' or 'intersex'. Whilst I understand that these descriptions are sensitive and respectful to the athletes themselves, all of these descriptions suggest that the athletes are- at least in some way- biologically female (e.g. when I first heard about the controversy around these athletes I assumed they maybe had something like extreme polycystic ovary syndrome. Because of this, I was dead against plans to restrict their right to compete). In reality however, these athletes have none of the biological markers that most people without blue hair would associate with women (uterus, XX chromosomes, vulva, periods, wide hips, etc.) To enhance understanding when reporting about this topic, a more accurate description of these athletes would be 'biological males raised as women due to atypical growth of external genitalia'.
Like Rojo, I certainly feel much more sympathy for these athletes and their desire to compete compared to the likes of Lia Thomas, but it is beyond doubt that fairness is compromised with their inclusion. We need only look at the 2016 800m women's podium to confirm this.
One of the most troubling aspects of the reporting of the DSD athletes such as Semenya, Niyonsaba, etc. is that they are frequently referred to by serious media outlets as 'women with naturally high testosterone',
Its a shame that so many reporters say that, because it's not true. They aren't women with high testosterone. They are biological males with normal levels of testosterone for a male.
Most reporters refuse to say the truth. If they were being honest they would say, "Man without a penis just beat a bunch of women."
She has no business out there vs women, where is the common sense at?
She can be who she is but she simply can't compete in sports vs women.
She is exactly where she should be in athletics. So many of you snowflakes melt and are so threatened by a woman like Francine, probably partly because she is a better athlete than most of you guys.
She is more like us guys, as you put it, than meets the eye.
One of the most troubling aspects of the reporting of the DSD athletes such as Semenya, Niyonsaba, etc. is that they are frequently referred to by serious media outlets as 'women with naturally high testosterone', 'women with a dsd' or 'intersex'. Whilst I understand that these descriptions are sensitive and respectful to the athletes themselves, all of these descriptions suggest that the athletes are- at least in some way- biologically female (e.g. when I first heard about the controversy around these athletes I assumed they maybe had something like extreme polycystic ovary syndrome. Because of this, I was dead against plans to restrict their right to compete). In reality however, these athletes have none of the biological markers that most people without blue hair would associate with women (uterus, XX chromosomes, vulva, periods, wide hips, etc.) To enhance understanding when reporting about this topic, a more accurate description of these athletes would be 'biological males raised as women due to atypical growth of external genitalia'.
Like Rojo, I certainly feel much more sympathy for these athletes and their desire to compete compared to the likes of Lia Thomas, but it is beyond doubt that fairness is compromised with their inclusion. We need only look at the 2016 800m women's podium to confirm this.
You make an important point about media coverage. In fact, if the media reported on these athletes accurately, the public would actually know that all of the medalists in the 800m at Rio were male.
In response to posters arguing for the inclusion of DSD males in the women's division on the grounds that they're running elite women's but not elite men's times: this is a numbers game. Very few people have 5-alpha reductase deficiency, so the talent pool is much smaller for this group than the pool of typical males. Semenya and Niyonsaba run women's elite times rather than men's times because they are non-elite males, not because males with this condition are somehow equivalent to females.
One of the most troubling aspects of the reporting of the DSD athletes such as Semenya, Niyonsaba, etc. is that they are frequently referred to by serious media outlets as 'women with naturally high testosterone', 'women with a dsd' or 'intersex'. Whilst I understand that these descriptions are sensitive and respectful to the athletes themselves, all of these descriptions suggest that the athletes are- at least in some way- biologically female (e.g. when I first heard about the controversy around these athletes I assumed they maybe had something like extreme polycystic ovary syndrome. Because of this, I was dead against plans to restrict their right to compete). In reality however, these athletes have none of the biological markers that most people without blue hair would associate with women (uterus, XX chromosomes, vulva, periods, wide hips, etc.) To enhance understanding when reporting about this topic, a more accurate description of these athletes would be 'biological males raised as women due to atypical growth of external genitalia'.
Like Rojo, I certainly feel much more sympathy for these athletes and their desire to compete compared to the likes of Lia Thomas, but it is beyond doubt that fairness is compromised with their inclusion. We need only look at the 2016 800m women's podium to confirm this.
You make an important point about media coverage. In fact, if the media reported on these athletes accurately, the public would actually know that all of the medalists in the 800m at Rio were male.
In response to posters arguing for the inclusion of DSD males in the women's division on the grounds that they're running elite women's but not elite men's times: this is a numbers game. Very few people have 5-alpha reductase deficiency, so the talent pool is much smaller for this group than the pool of typical males. Semenya and Niyonsaba run women's elite times rather than men's times because they are non-elite males, not because males with this condition are somehow equivalent to females.
Does Niyonsaba also have 5-ARD? I was unaware her specific type of DSD was made public.
Yes it. And what Wejo and I were talking about are people like Fanny Blankers Koen (And I know I messed up the spelling) who dominated their sport then (in her case) were found to be "men" on the inside after she died.
It could be that you aren't old enough to have seen what we're talking about on TV.
40-100 years ago we would just think that "woman" was more "masculine" than the others.
I didn't read the rest of your post because you started off wrong.
Fanny BK was a mother of two and was not found to be a 'man' after she died.
Fanny BK was a mother of two and was not found to be a 'man' after she died.
Can only assume they meant Stanisława Walasiewicz. Olympic gold and other world titles but later found to have no uterus and an underdeveloped penis upon death.