Are there any good non-invasive lactate measurement devices? To be clear, I'm asking about a device that does not require blood extraction.
Are there any good non-invasive lactate measurement devices? To be clear, I'm asking about a device that does not require blood extraction.
Bumping because I also want to know. The Norwegian-style concept of monitoring lactate obviously makes sense to manage intensity, but there’s no way I want to be constantly stabbing my fingers or those of my athletes.
A friend of mine who works for Abbott labs who works on their blood sugar monitors (freestyle libre) says it is possible.
If you use a heartrate strap and work up to 92-93% of your heartrate max (end of a progression run) you can feel your lactate threshold. Then back off and stay just below it for 5-10 min.
Bump.
Your brain
heartrate monitor. wrote:
If you use a heartrate strap and work up to 92-93% of your heartrate max (end of a progression run) you can feel your lactate threshold. Then back off and stay just below it for 5-10 min.
1) This did not answer the question. To which the answer is "not yet".
2) For a WELL-TRAINED person that percentage is probably in the ballpark, but for someone no so well-trained it would be a near maximal level. For lesser trained runners that percentage of max will be lower.
3) Lots of things can affect HR on any given day making it inexact. That said, this chasing exactitude is probably unnecessary.
It is old school, but the "talk test" is a pretty decent methodology. When running at a pace where you can give 2-3 word answers to a question and/or start to notice your breathing then you are in the ball park. That is actually pretty good.
1. Yes, a heartrate monitor is a non-invasive way to work up to FEELING your lactate threshold. You don’t need to know what the numbers are- the body doesn’t care about the metrics. Running is all about a feeling and knowing that feeling.
2. Sure, it’s probably going to be lower for a less trained individual. I gave a ball park figure for the OP to work with. They can work up their heartrate until they feel their lactate threshold.
3. Heartrate is a very valid and exact measure of the physiological stress on the heart/body. Wind, heat, hydration, carbohydrate status, hills, etc of course are going to be stressors on the heart/body and make the HR higher- you’re still working the heart appropriately. 93% of HR max in January is still the same effort/stress as in July, regardless of pace.
The talk test is BS. Finding lactate threshold is a feeling and knowing how to tune into that feeling.
The reason you aren't getting any answers is because you are asking about something that is defined by lactate concentration in the blood, but want something that isn't drawing blood. As others have said, there are useful proxies that estimate it (heart rate as a function of max HR), but you won't get anything that can be precise or unique to you as an individual.
suspicion in the ignition_ wrote:
The reason you aren't getting any answers is because you are asking about something that is defined by lactate concentration in the blood, but want something that isn't drawing blood. As others have said, there are useful proxies that estimate it (heart rate as a function of max HR), but you won't get anything that can be precise or unique to you as an individual.
I think the answer to his question is "not yet".
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33565-xWith regard to heart rate and LT, it seems a lot less useful than perceived effort. Your brain is already controlling your heart rate, respiration, energy production, etc. Why interpret smoke signals when you have direct access to the source?
What do you intend to do with that information that you can not using HR alone? Most watches with enough training data will spit out your threshold HR, so it’s a pretty good proxy for when the steeper increase in HR/lactate starts to happen. If you have a well tuned relationship between pace and HR, you can obtained a renewed current of estimate your lactate threshold in a single afternoon with just a chest strap and several test runs.
I assume you are trying to get an accurate nmol/l lactate level at different above-threshold paces and run lengths. Question is why when HR is a pretty good proxy even above the lactate threshold? Your heart is beating faster in good part to supply O2-rich blood and clear away the accumulating lactate: the more the buildup, the faster it’ll have to beat.
This study disagrees. I am open to see your peer-reviewed paper.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21774751/As does this (in cyclists in this case).
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349830550_Talk_Test_A_Simple_Alternative_to_Identify_Lactate_Thresholds_during_Progressive_Cycling_ExerciseI sense contradictions all over the place. If it is about "feeling" then why use a HRM. Moderately hard is pretty good. Or the pace you could sustain for an hour is also pretty good.
OH...TX wrote:
suspicion in the ignition_ wrote:
The reason you aren't getting any answers is because you are asking about something that is defined by lactate concentration in the blood, but want something that isn't drawing blood. As others have said, there are useful proxies that estimate it (heart rate as a function of max HR), but you won't get anything that can be precise or unique to you as an individual.
I think the answer to his question is "not yet".
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33565-xWith regard to heart rate and LT, it seems a lot less useful than perceived effort. Your brain is already controlling your heart rate, respiration, energy production, etc. Why interpret smoke signals when you have direct access to the source?
RPE and LT are pretty close linked. In the hundreds (yes hundreds) of tests I was part of conducting on high level athletes (not many on unfit folks), the LT as measured using our protocol (how one determines LT even when measuring blood lactate varies) more often than not fell into the 15-17 range on the 6-20 Borg scale. Also, it seemed to kick in about the time the athlete got less interested and able to carry on a normal conversation.
I have searched for this myself:
https://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-athlete/
It measures continuously and you need a new sensor every 30 days, which costs A LOT. It is not a viable solution for us mortals. Maybe for Jakob Ingebrigtsen that measures like excess of 10 times a week, he has the money and the need for it. Or if you are rich, just go for it ;-)
maternal identifier wrote:
Bumping because I also want to know. The Norwegian-style concept of monitoring lactate obviously makes sense to manage intensity, but there’s no way I want to be constantly stabbing my fingers or those of my athletes.
A friend of mine who works for Abbott labs who works on their blood sugar monitors (freestyle libre) says it is possible.
The main thing is to err on the low side. The model is around 2h race pace in the morning and faster in the evening, max 3,5 but preferably at 2.5-3. this can be done without measurement by feel and pace and RPE. I use breathing a lot to measure my internal load. It directly translates to my metabolism so I have learned to trust it. If you know your current 5k and 10k times it is quite reliable to estimate the pace range you should hit and combined with feel and breathing I think you can get quite close. If you also occationally do a lactate measurement to learn to trust this, I think it would suffice.
The Norwegian model uses the pace that gives the right lactate level and not the threshold pace. So if you do 5x6min morning reps it is around 2h race pace, if you do 3min reps (60s rest) it is for good runners down towards10k pace and if you do 60s reps (30s rest) it is approx 5k pace.
I own a metabolic cart, some Moxy SMO2 sensors, and a Lactate Pro meter. There really isn't a way to do blood lactate yet without a blood sample. There's something like Supersapiens for lactate tho, I think.
I just did a workout two days ago with 7 blood samples. My fingers are a little sore, but it's not bad. I even use the same finger for two samples (using a new finger prick)
It's really not that difficult to self test while cycling. Much harder doing it while running, tho.
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
I have searched for this myself:
https://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-athlete/It measures continuously and you need a new sensor every 30 days, which costs A LOT. It is not a viable solution for us mortals. Maybe for Jakob Ingebrigtsen that measures like excess of 10 times a week, he has the money and the need for it. Or if you are rich, just go for it ;-)
Interesting.
The device is 200$, an a new sensor costs 100 bucks, so not too many for a professional. However i have my doubt about the reliability of that values.
But lets see ....
lexel wrote:
Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:
I have searched for this myself:
https://www.pkvitality.com/ktrack-athlete/It measures continuously and you need a new sensor every 30 days, which costs A LOT. It is not a viable solution for us mortals. Maybe for Jakob Ingebrigtsen that measures like excess of 10 times a week, he has the money and the need for it. Or if you are rich, just go for it ;-)
Interesting.
The device is 200$, an a new sensor costs 100 bucks, so not too many for a professional. However i have my doubt about the reliability of that values.
But lets see ....
Anyone with any idea on when this will be available?
This will interest you. Probably several years from commercial availability unfortunately
Why use a HR monitor? Because most people don't carry a pen and paper when they run to jot down their HR at any given moment then circle the emoji metric that matches their feeling. Oh wait. Did we want peer reviewed? Ok, peers. Review my opinion.