Buying my first pair of super shoes... Do they have to have a carbon fiber plate? Or just that huge cushion sole?

Same boat. Trying to just have a decent marathon and been training in lightweight neutral forever but all of the sudden everyone has super shoes. I looked it all up and just felt confused. I run in the same shoes I train in. And I train in the same shoes for all runs. So should I just pass on the super shoes??? I once ran a 2:59 and if super shoes would’ve made it 2:57 that’s cool. I’ll take a few minutes off my time in a marathon if I can but is it worth it?

If the foam that is used is of the correct kind, a carbon plate is needed for it all to work correctly. The reason the Nike’s are so good at what they do, is the combination of the foam and the stiffness and shape of the plate. The plate is often looked at as a spring in the shoe for some reason, and that is just not correct. Carbon fiber is stiff and not overly flexible or springy. The plate essentially has a dual responsibility. It is stabilization for the foam and acts as a “lever” for the foot. As your foot transitions onto your toes during your foot strike, there is a slight enhancement in ankle plantarflexion as you push down due to the “s” curve of the plate. The foam also has a dual role in that helps with cushioning obviously, but the responsiveness of the peba/pebax product acts as a slight spring when compressed to help get your foot up off the ground and make use of the plate again.

When crappy foams are used with a plate, the shoe often doesn’t work correctly. It is often extremely stiff in these cases, and many times the plate doesn’t have the correct shape either due to Nikes patent on the shape. Adidas has skirted this with using separate rods, and ASICS has produced a plate that has a more rounded plate as opposed to a more pronounced “s” curve in Nikes case.

But I believe the ASICS Novablast 1 is a decent unplated shoe that has a decent springy foam. A bit heavy, but it does the job.

illrunner wrote:

But I believe the ASICS Novablast 1 is a decent unplated shoe that has a decent springy foam. A bit heavy, but it does the job.

Maybe but I still won't recommend them! Too unstable and mushy.

Make sure you try them on from all the manufacturers. I own Vaporflys, Endorphin Pros and the Hoyas. The Vaporflys are easily the best but your experience may differ.

The above post that said you need the plate is spot on.

Sauconys endorphin pro can often be found for like $100. That's probably the cheapest way in. It's a pretty good shoe IMO.

Buy the alphafly, it's great.

This. If you’re not looking to spend retail for a supershoe either get the Saucony Endorphin Speed (PEBA foam and nylon plate) or a pair of Endorphin Pro 1’s on sale. I wouldn’t overlook the speed, forefoot flexibility (or lack thereof in the case of the Endo Pro) doesn’t affect running economy, and if too stiff, can negatively impact it.

Aside from the Endorphin line, save your money and just buy a regular “tempo day” shoe. EVA midsoles don’t work compared to the TPU based foams (think NB Fuelcell and Adidas Lightstrike pro) or especially the PEBA based foams (ASICS, Saucony, and Nike). They (EVA midsoles with a plate) don’t improve running economy any over a regular old skool racing flat. So…since that’s the case save your money and just buy a regular performance trainer if you don’t like the Endorphin Speed or Pro.

This, about the Endorphin Speed. Because Saucony is in the second generation of the Endorphin shoes, you can often find the Speed (nylon plate) and Pro (carbon plate) for $100 or less. I have the Speed, and the difference in feel between that (with its nylon plate) and the Hoka Carbon X2 (carbon plate but "old school" foam) is unreal; the Speed is so much more lively (almost too lively for me since I'm dealing with some achilles issues). Check those out if you have the opportunity.

You might be interested in the new wave of super flats coming out (Adidas Takumi Sen 8, Nike Streakfly). I believe neither has a carbon plate and both use modern foams, though there's no published research on them. FWIW the Dragonfly just has a plastic plate, and people seem to love them.

Also, the Endorphin Pros are STIFF. Those things feel fast but kill my feet on long runs.

Thank you for the informative post. The Pro is supposed to be better than the Speed? Would something like this be good for someone who wants to see what super shoes can do without breaking the bank? Not trying to advertise... Genuinely hunting for the right shoe for me... Like I say, I'm 33 and will probably only run 1 or 2 road races per year, but it would be fun to have something fast for race day when I do line up.

What about the Skechers Speed Elite?

https://www.sierra.com/skechers-gorun-speed-elite-running-shoes-for-men~p~77xxv/?filterString=mens-running-shoes~d~395%2F#reviewsSection

To all of you out there - where online do you buy your clearance super shoes?

Running Wearhouse only seems to have large shoe sizes on clearance.

Again, where online do you buy super shoes - clearance and in regular sizes still available?

Thanks.

If you can, get one of each and send back the one you don’t like. The only real difference is the plate, nylon in the speed and carbon fiber in the pro. We know from a research paper where researchers cut the forefoot of a Vaporfly in 6 places (so that the forefoot bent like a Nike Free) that forefoot flexibility doesn’t affect running economy so between the two it’s up to whichever one your body likes better.

If you don’t like either just get whatever performance trainer you prefer and be done with it. Nothing else below $200 will do anything that the PEBA shoes will do.

Out of the loop wrote:

What about the Skechers Speed Elite?

https://www.sierra.com/skechers-gorun-speed-elite-running-shoes-for-men~p~77xxv/?filterString=mens-running-shoes~d~395%2F#reviewsSection

I’d try the endorphins first. The Hyperburst is EVA and won’t do anything that EVA has been doing for years. It’s no more economical than any old racing flat. It’s an option if you don’t like the Endorphin shoes, especially at that price, but if you want to go super on a budget there’s really no other option. Try the Endorphin Speed & Pro and see how you like those before you do anything else.

I just ran a 2:48 in the original Saucony Endorphin Pro after running a 2:54 and 2:55 in the original Next% FWIW. The Pros can be found for under $100 but I’m sure they’re getting pretty hard to find.

Other posters have summed it up well. TL;DR: the Endorphin Pro is probably the best bang for your buck, but if you need another option and want to make sure it's "super" just make sure it has both PEBA or TPU foam (outlined below) and a carbon fiber plate to provide stiffness/stability.

A true "super shoe" combines one of the newer high-rebound foams, usually PEBA, with some sort of stiff carbon plate situation. It's the combination of stiffness and resilience from the foam that provides the "super" effect, making them the best options purely on-paper. Here are all the WA-approved marathon flats that do that available in the US market:

1. Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next% 2 ($250)

2. Nike Zoom Alphafly Next% ($275)

3. ASICS METASPEED Sky ($250)

4. ASICS METASPEED Edge ($250)

5. Saucony Endorphin Pro 2 ($200)

6. adidas adizero Adios Pro 2 ($220)

7. New Balance FuelCell RC Elite v2 ($230)*

*believe this is either TPU or nitrogen-infused EVA, not sure.

There are some manufacturers that do not have access to PEBA foams that are using other compounds, either nitrogen-infused EVA, TPU, or a blend of the two, to get a similar effect. The initial feel is similar, but the foam is generally lower rebound (i.e. less energy return) and is not as resistant to temperature change as the above shoes offer. That's a strictly technical look at it; the shoes are still very good in terms of stiffness and cushion and tend to be a little more affordable:

1. Skechers GOrun Speed Freek ($200)

2. Brooks Hyperion Elite 2 ($250)

There are other shoes that have carbon fiber plates in them but use a standard EVA foam. Those are generally not going to provide you with the "super" feel that you'd get from the above options, but I suppose compared with a traditional racing flat it may be better:

1. ASICS Magic Speed ($150)

2. HOKA Carbon X 2 ($180)

3. HOKA Rocket X ($200)

Saucony Endorphin Pro is running between $120 to $150 dependent on color. The bland "black" is in the $120 range. The more colorful uppers at $150. The "$99" offer is in unusual shoe sizes = real small or quite large.

Saucony Endorphin Pro 2 is consistently at $200. Prices quoted are before tax, but most places have free shipping.

Hope this helps.

What is the major difference between original Pro and the Pro 2? Is it the midsole foam used, or was it a redesign of the shoe?

Any insightful insight appreciated.

Just a minor upper update