Lee Ving wrote:
Calvin's doctrine of cessationism was also unbiblical. It's a miracle it lasted as long as it did.
In what sense is Calvin wrong about cessationism?
Lee Ving wrote:
Calvin's doctrine of cessationism was also unbiblical. It's a miracle it lasted as long as it did.
In what sense is Calvin wrong about cessationism?
Lee Ving wrote:
Calvin's doctrine of cessationism was also unbiblical. It's a miracle it lasted as long as it did.
Cessation is NOT un-Biblical. And factually, the evidence we have is that it is correct.
coachcommentsnicely:
How do you justify the existence of the non-elect?
How does the Bible justify the existence of the non-elect?
Is the Bible the Word of God, or the word of man about their understanding of God?
/mu/tant runner wrote:
Calvinism is an interesting branch of Christianity whose importance seems a bit understated -- it was the forerunner to a good chunk of mainline protestant sects, save Lutherans and Methodists. Many, many of the early American settlers came from a Calvinist derived theology,
But have you ever met someone who is a Calvinist proper? It seems like these churches still somewhat exist, but are pretty sparse. I have never met one. If you have: were they big into predestination? the total depravity of the soul? Did they hate Catholics & Monasteries? -- or were they just like any other protestant you have met?
Also - are Catholics are christian? I can convince myself of either position
Religion: the cancer of humanity.
Raised Calvinist wrote:
Lee Ving wrote:
Calvin's doctrine of cessationism was also unbiblical. It's a miracle it lasted as long as it did.
Cessation is NOT un-Biblical. And factually, the evidence we have is that it is correct.
Oh oh. "Raised Calvinist" either hasn't been reading his Bible, or, hasn't been reading it correctly. 🤔
coachcommentsnicely wrote:
You spend a lot of time dwelling on something you don’t believe exists.
I’m sure I have the LDL and you have HDL?
I claim no right to eternal reward. In fact, I claim that I deserve eternal punishment. There is nothing that I have done to earn a reward.
I would also not claim dominion over all things and creatures. There have been some who claim that they do have dominion over all things and creatures, and they use that claim to abuse the earth and its creatures. Instead I would claim that Christ has dominion, and that I am a steward. It is our responsibility to take care of all things and creatures. Which we as a collective people have failed miserably at.
And I’d say that every person is made in the “image” of God, not just me. That’s why everyone deserves respect, love and kindness.
"Dwelling?" My response was brief. Briefer by far than the lengthy
assertions that preceded it. You all made God and you only suppose She made you...in any image all. My key points earlier stand.
jamese1045@hotmail.comwrote:
coachcommentsnicely wrote:
You spend a lot of time dwelling on something you don’t believe exists.
I’m sure I have the LDL and you have HDL?
I claim no right to eternal reward. In fact, I claim that I deserve eternal punishment. There is nothing that I have done to earn a reward.
I would also not claim dominion over all things and creatures. There have been some who claim that they do have dominion over all things and creatures, and they use that claim to abuse the earth and its creatures. Instead I would claim that Christ has dominion, and that I am a steward. It is our responsibility to take care of all things and creatures. Which we as a collective people have failed miserably at.
And I’d say that every person is made in the “image” of God, not just me. That’s why everyone deserves respect, love and kindness.
"Dwelling?" My response was brief. Briefer by far than the lengthy
assertions that preceded it. You all made God and you only suppose She made you...in any image all. My key points earlier stand.
Yes, "dwelling": to think or talk about (something) for a long time. No one forced you to come and talk about God. Instead, you saw the subject and you had to come and share with us how much you don't believe in Him.
I only hope the best for you my friend. I hope you succeed in all you do.
55YO wrote:
Wrong. John and Matthew wrote two of the gospels, and they were with Jesus. Add in Peter's letters, and James', and there are enough to dismiss your claim.
100% incorrect. John was the latest gospel, written 90 years after the death. Again, this is not argued in theology.
joalturn wrote:
Is the Bible the Word of God, or the word of man about their understanding of God?
The bible is a collection of stories written by different people at various points throughout history, spanning some 1,000 year length of time.
The books of the bible were then chosen to be in the bible over the course of a few hundred years by various church leaders, from approximately 100 CE to 400 CE.
And even then, various religious sects have different numbers of books. Protestants 66, Roman Catholics 73, and Ethiopia Orthodox over 80.
So if the bible is the word of god, he sure took a round-about way to publishing.
Lee Ving wrote:
Raised Calvinist wrote:
Cessation is NOT un-Biblical. And factually, the evidence we have is that it is correct.
Oh oh. "Raised Calvinist" either hasn't been reading his Bible, or, hasn't been reading it correctly. 🤔
No, you are wrong, Ving. It looks like you are the one who has failed to read the Bible correctly.
joalturn wrote:
coachcommentsnicely:
How do you justify the existence of the non-elect?
How does the Bible justify the existence of the non-elect?
Is the Bible the Word of God, or the word of man about their understanding of God?
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
The Bible is the Word of God.
Some would say it is the word of man, which would be silly. Technically men wrote the Bible (through the Holy Spirit). The Bible is a composition of 66 seperate books/letters and not just one book that some guys got together and wrote.
a pox wrote:
/mu/tant runner wrote:
Calvinism is an interesting branch of Christianity whose importance seems a bit understated -- it was the forerunner to a good chunk of mainline protestant sects, save Lutherans and Methodists. Many, many of the early American settlers came from a Calvinist derived theology,
But have you ever met someone who is a Calvinist proper? It seems like these churches still somewhat exist, but are pretty sparse. I have never met one. If you have: were they big into predestination? the total depravity of the soul? Did they hate Catholics & Monasteries? -- or were they just like any other protestant you have met?
Also - are Catholics are christian? I can convince myself of either position
Religion: the cancer of humanity.
How can you call something a cancer that seems to be hardwired into human DNA. To the best of my knowledge, archeologists and anthropologists have not discovered a culture in the history of mankind that did not believe in God or some force greater than themselves. Think really hard about what I just said before thinking you are smarter than the collective wisdom of all humanity.
coachcommentsnicely wrote:
Bad Wigins wrote:
How can we know this God person is someone we would want to be embraced by?
Most of the stories compare him to a livestock herder, who typically ends up killing and eating the livestock in the end.
Oh wow. Dang it Wiggins. You are so smart. Bravo!
Answer the question how about. Why should I trust this god?
Religion is weird in Europe. The Swiss have a church named like the Simpsons would: Eglise Nationale Protestante which is the descendent of Calvin's religion in the city of Calvin where they have a statue of the man in the Promenade des Bastions.
If you are a member of a German Church, they tax your paycheck and give it to the church.
coachcommentsnicely wrote:
joalturn wrote:
coachcommentsnicely:
How do you justify the existence of the non-elect?
How does the Bible justify the existence of the non-elect?
Is the Bible the Word of God, or the word of man about their understanding of God?
Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.
The Bible is the Word of God.
Some would say it is the word of man, which would be silly. Technically men wrote the Bible (through the Holy Spirit). The Bible is a composition of 66 seperate books/letters and not just one book that some guys got together and wrote.
I think one of my biggest bones to pick with calvinism includes the reality of what the teaching proposes. There are over 30000 verses in the Bible. Yet you point to just two to justify your beliefs. And of those verses, they weren’t the words of Jesus or God, but of a man who wrote well after Jesus’ death. For a teaching so vitally important, ie the eternal destination of every man, woman, and child that has walked the earth, you would think more would devoted to this topic.
In addition, a quick google search shows about 75 million people world wide are Calvinist. Let’s assume that every single one of them is in fact “elect” and not self-deceived. That would mean that 99.99% of the world’s current population would be damned to hell for eternity. And if we apply those numbers to the past, we’re talking 60+ billion people in hell, with a relatively small number in heaven.
Not to mention the fact that Paul does not explicitly state that God prepares vessels of wrath for destruction. Instead it’s posed as a question, a possibility to consider, if I’m reading the verses you quoted correctly. So we’re to believe that a quandary put forth by a man 2000 years ago in fact is the true reality by which the outcomes of all humans past, present, and future are decided?
Calvinism is one of the grossest forms of Christian exceptionalism, and it’s amazing that people follow these beliefs without ever trying to comprehend the magnitude and reality of what these beliefs would encompass if they were in fact true.
But hey, you’re one of the elect, right? Your fate is signed, sealed, delivered. Sucks for everyone else who never had a fighting chance. Just hunks of clay that can be burned forever.
coachcommentsnicely wrote:
If you and I can agree that the Bible is the word of God, then let’s use it to make our argument
Jesus is the word of God, not the Bible, correct?
Let’s say by some absolute miracle, the books of the Bible, after going through the hands of hundreds of scribes and being the result of political committees was in deed exactly what God wanted. You know how much is lost in translation when going from Greek/Hebrew to English? For instance, the word “eternal” in the English Bible is usually interpreted as a length of time, when in its original language it meant “quality of experience”. Completely flips on its head what “eternal life” and “eternal damnation” might mean when talking about a quality and not quantity.
So how could we even discuss when we don’t know the thousands of nuances?
Good luck not only believing that the words on the page are the literal “words of God” but also believing you know how to interpret them.
joalturn wrote:
Calvinism is one of the grossest forms of Christian exceptionalism, and it’s amazing that people follow these beliefs without ever trying to comprehend the magnitude and reality of what these beliefs would encompass if they were in fact true.
But hey, you’re one of the elect, right? Your fate is signed, sealed, delivered. Sucks for everyone else who never had a fighting chance. Just hunks of clay that can be burned forever.
You’ve nailed it, especially here. Calvinists make God the ultimate scapegoat so they don’t have to justify the horrendous beliefs because they’re just dirty sinners like us and it’s “Gods word not ours!” You’re also not allowed to question, because “who are you oh man . . .” Check Mate!
joalturn wrote:
coachcommentsnicely:
How do you justify the existence of the non-elect?
How does the Bible justify the existence of the non-elect?
Is the Bible the Word of God, or the word of man about their understanding of God?
Why did God choose the Israelites? Is question that unique to Calvinism?
Hardloper wrote:
Why did God choose the Israelites? Is question that unique to Calvinism?
Has anyone outside of Israel ever agreed or confirmed that Israel is Gods Chosen people? Or is it just the books they wrote about themselves that verify it?
What you are misunderstanding is that Calvinists believe they are they only saved! Anyone who professes faith in Jesus Christ is “elect” , whether they are Methodist, Catholic or Lutheran.
Here’s something from Jesus: John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
There are more verses to support predestination. I gave three! That’s not too shabby. I have more! Do you have Any counter verses?
Did Christ die on the cross as a Hail Mary? Was he crossing his fingers hoping someone would believe? What magnitude am I missing with my beliefs?
Strawman and more strawman! I have faith that God has chosen me. But the work doesn’t end there! You shall know His people by their fruit and their labor. We are called to evangelize and look for the lost sheep.
As for the whole “what parts of the Bible are lost in translation”. I am sure that the God of the universe, the One who spoke and made light… can preserve His Word.
If some were false, all of it is false. Who’s to decide what’s what? I instead intend to have faith that the Word has been faithfully passed on.