Average high school distance runner 4 x 400 relay team vs El G over 1600m

Bad Wigins wrote:

Look. Never mind what's the average high school (A or the max # of A's in your state) or whether you're talking about the best or average distance runner at the school, or even if you include 800 runners.

Fact is, four guys who can run a 56 either can or very nearly can near an 8 minute 4x800 relay, and that is way above average high school team.

False. your average 56 second high school distance runner is a 2:04, give or take a second, in most cases.

You are correct. Our team had 3 guys split sub 2 last year. We had about 25 go 56 or faster. The 3 who went sub 2 all split 54.

We had several guys run around 55 who only split 2:05-2:10.

high school xc coach wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Look. Never mind what's the average high school (A or the max # of A's in your state) or whether you're talking about the best or average distance runner at the school, or even if you include 800 runners.

Fact is, four guys who can run a 56 either can or very nearly can near an 8 minute 4x800 relay, and that is way above average high school team.

False. your average 56 second high school distance runner is a 2:04, give or take a second, in most cases.

The kids in the distance group who runs 56 or the kids in the sprinter group who run 56? They certainly train differently. I had 56 second distance kids who ran 2:01 and 56 second young sprinter trained athletes who couldn't run under2:08.

But you didn't have 4 guys ran 56 and 2:00 which is what the guy claimed.

not an official wrote:

But you didn't have 4 guys ran 56 and 2:00 which is what the guy claimed.

No just 1 and he was a pure distance runner.

not an official wrote:

But you didn't have 4 guys ran 56 and 2:00 which is what the guy claimed.

Dammit first of all by "56" I mean they can run sub 56. El G's 1600 is a 3:42 flat, so we're really talking about 55.5. So your 2:04 turns to 2:03 at worst. That's still an exaggeration, as distance runners err on the endurance end, but whatever. I didn't say they'd for sure run sub 8, just close enough to be way better than average.

prove it, you say? Okay, here's a randomly picked populous state champs, from 2019 before lockdowns and closures skewed everything. 8:12 scores points in 1A and 2A and is comfortably away from DFL in 3A prelims. How do you get into the state meet at all with an average team? Let go the selection bias and understand most schools get NOWHERE NEAR this level.

Still not happening. There is no 4x8 team that averages 55.5 and runs 8:00. None.

not an official wrote:

Still not happening. There is no 4x8 team that averages 55.5 and runs 8:00. None.

for sure. those kids exist, but to get 4 endurance monsters like that just doesn't happen.

high school kids just aren't very aerobically sound. I think the average sub 2:00 high school kid probably splits in the realm of 53.xx for a 4x4.

Our 8:02 had approx PRs of:

1 - 50/2:00

2 - 53/1:57/4:21

3 - 54/2:01/4:36

4 - 55/2:01/4:26/9:20 (3200m)

Only 2 and 3 would be considered typical ~2:00 guys. 1's a sprinter. Nobody gets 4 guys like 4.

That guy eventually broke 2:00 in college, but at a point where he was also running under 14:30 in the 5k.

not an official wrote:

Still not happening. There is no 4x8 team that averages 55.5 and runs 8:00. None.

Stop with the straw goalpost. I originally said they get near enough to sub 8 to be way above average, and it's true. Even an 8:12 team is way above average. Four 55.5-capable DR's is way above average.

Are you claiming there's no distance guy who runs 55.5 and 1:59.9? And remember it's a relay, a 2:01 open 800 guy can get a 2 flat relay on the right day.

How fast an open 4 do you suppose Nick Symmonds could ever have ran? No faster than 47 flat, surely.

103/47 = 2.19 x 55.5 = 120.47

i.e. four 55.5 guys with a Symmonds-like speed/endurance profile can run just about 8, sub with good exchanges.

Bad Wigins wrote:

not an official wrote:

Still not happening. There is no 4x8 team that averages 55.5 and runs 8:00. None.

Stop with the straw goalpost. I originally said they get near enough to sub 8 to be way above average, and it's true. Even an 8:12 team is way above average. Four 55.5-capable DR's is way above average.

Are you claiming there's no distance guy who runs 55.5 and 1:59.9? And remember it's a relay, a 2:01 open 800 guy can get a 2 flat relay on the right day.

How fast an open 4 do you suppose Nick Symmonds could ever have ran? No faster than 47 flat, surely.

103/47 = 2.19 x 55.5 = 120.47

i.e. four 55.5 guys with a Symmonds-like speed/endurance profile can run just about 8, sub with good exchanges.

O.P. started a thread basically asking if it is above average for a high school to find four distance guys (800m guys) capable of 3:42 4 x 400m. In U.S., it is not difficult to find a high school T&F team with four 800m guys who can average sub-55.5 400m on a relay. That means two 800m guys actually sub-55.5 and two more a bit slower than 55.5. Pretty average in U.S. Then O.P. made his 4 x 800m in 8 minutes post. Far more difficult to put together a sub-8 4 x 800m relay team. Why is this a debate? I demonstrated a few days ago 3:42 4 x 400m is more than 27% slower than 4 x 400m world record while 8 minutes 4 x 800m is more than 12% slower than 4 x 800m world record. In high school, it takes sub-54 guys for 2 minutes 800m. Your Nick Symmonds is a poor example. I am sure he was not averaging 3 1/2 seconds slower than his 400m personal best in high school for 800m.

Reminder: O.P. in his follow-up post did not state 8 minutes 4 x 800m. Other posters have rounded O.P. remarks to 8 minutes 4x 800m. O.P. stated 4 x 800m faster than peak Daniel Komen which is sub-7:56 (converting 2 miles to 3200m). Finding a high school with a sub-7:56 4 x 800m relay team is not easy. Certainly, sub-7:56 4 x 800m relay is not average. Stillwater Area High School with their great running tradition has had six sub-7:56 4 x 800m relay teams. Wayzata High School with their great running tradition has had eight sub-7:56 4 x 800m relay teams.

It all comes back to what does it mean to be an average HS distance guy and who becomes your 800 meter runner. Quite often it's either a sprinter moving up because he's not quite a true sprinter or a distance guy moving down because he's got very good speed-above average speed- for a distance runner.

The Penn Relay carnival accepts average 4x400 teams and tries to place them in equal heats with each preliminary heat getting faster. They expect a 3:40 or better. Given that so many schools year in and year out can barely run much faster than 3:40 I'd suggest that although 55 is average for HS runners it is above average for the HS distance guys. The Penn Relays also take the top 70 4x800 teams and the cutoff is about 8:06 for the big schools and 8:10 for the smaller schools. These are way above average. (They only take yhe top 15 distance medley relays and the cutoff is generally 10:30.)