What's up with the 1985 Footlocker results?

I don't know, but if you look at the girls winner and her time (16:43) vs her times on track - although she won almost every race - they don't compare with the times run by girls who ran much slower at FL.

It does make you wonder. I mean these were good runners but the times seem too fast at FL (or Kinney). The number of guys under 15:30, and girls under 17:30 on that course in 1985 seems high.

https://va.milesplit.com/athletes/3597666-erin-keogh/stats

https://www.footlockercc.com/history/1985girls.htm

Alexi Santana wrote:

- They're primarily no-names other than Marc Davis, who was only a junior that year

I really dislike when people call others no-names or similar. I believe that Eric Mastalir tied the national record at the track state meet. He and his brother went 1-2 in Arcadia later that school year. For the time, they were not no-names. And others ran notable times too.

Mark Dani came 18th at world XC champs (junior) a few months later.

That year, John Nuttall was 35th, Reuben Reina was 47th, Khalid Skah was 68th,

iiiii wrote:

Mark Dani came 18th at world XC champs (junior) a few months later.

That year, John Nuttall was 35th, Reuben Reina was 47th, Khalid Skah was 68th,

Legitimate question - how good is that? Looks like Americans got top 20 fairly regularly back then. They are obviously great runners but hopefully you see the point that their accomplishments don't compare to those that set national records or many other course records.

WDC Runner wrote:

Alexi Santana wrote:

- They're primarily no-names other than Marc Davis, who was only a junior that year

I really dislike when people call others no-names or similar. I believe that Eric Mastalir tied the national record at the track state meet. He and his brother went 1-2 in Arcadia later that school year. For the time, they were not no-names. And others ran notable times too.

This is fair - "no-names" is not fair. But as mentioned in my above post, hopefully the point is clear that they aren't even in the conversation for most accomplished HS runners ever. Though let me know if the track times that year were an outlier relative to other years.

Alexi Santana wrote:

iiiii wrote:

Mark Dani came 18th at world XC champs (junior) a few months later.

That year, John Nuttall was 35th, Reuben Reina was 47th, Khalid Skah was 68th,

Legitimate question - how good is that? Looks like Americans got top 20 fairly regularly back then. They are obviously great runners but hopefully you see the point that their accomplishments don't compare to those that set national records or many other course records.

18th was pretty good that year.

Brahmin Boutayeb was 7th

Peter Rono was 10th

Jimenez (who to this day is still ranked 7th all time at 5000m in Spain) was 13th

Getting a top 10 was virtually impossible that year.

Ethiopians and Kenyans were all over the top 20. A couple of stud Morocans and Spanish guys were also pretty unbeatable.

Alexi Santana wrote:

Came up on my YouTube recommended videos list the other day and watched it knowing it's when Reuben Reina set the course record.

Seems very suspicious for a few reasons:

- 9 guys broke 15 that year. Most years ZERO break it and if they do they win by a significant margin

- They're primarily no-names other than Marc Davis, who was only a junior that year

- It's hard to believe someone who didn't otherwise have impressive credentials is running over 20 seconds faster than guys like Verzbicas, Cheserek, Grant Fisher, and Drew Hunter in recent years

- Reina barely even looked tired at the end...I have a hard time believing someone actually smashed the other times without a balls-out effort

Did something change about the course that year? Did someone misplace a marker?

There were several things different about the Balboa Park course in 1985 as compared to the course now.

1. The course was in better condition.

2. They didn't use fencing (which has sharp 90 degree turns.) Instead they just painted lines on the grass, and made the turn lines curved which are easier and faster to run than a sharp turn.

3. Two parts of the course were marked shorter in 1985, compared to how the course is now. (And since it's a 1.5 loop times 2, that means 4 times the runners in 1985 ran a shorter distance than they do now.)

4. Several times in the 1980's the start line was moved up about 10 meters from where it is today. From the 1985 video it's hard to tell whether or not the start line was moved up in 1985. (It was definitely moved up 10 meters in 1983 and 1986. I'm not sure about 1984.)

5. Also, in several places 1985 winner Ruben Reina ran inside the line, saving some distance.

Overall, the course was probably 20 seconds faster in 1985 than it is now.

Alexi Santana wrote:

Came up on my YouTube recommended videos list the other day and watched it knowing it's when Reuben Reina set the course record.

Seems very suspicious for a few reasons:

- 9 guys broke 15 that year. Most years ZERO break it and if they do they win by a significant margin

- They're primarily no-names other than Marc Davis, who was only a junior that year

- It's hard to believe someone who didn't otherwise have impressive credentials is running over 20 seconds faster than guys like Verzbicas, Cheserek, Grant Fisher, and Drew Hunter in recent years

- Reina barely even looked tired at the end...I have a hard time believing someone actually smashed the other times without a balls-out effort

Did something change about the course that year? Did someone misplace a marker or

I dug up this stuff

which links to

which includes a chart showing all results 1985 to 2015

Alexi Santana wrote:

Came up on my YouTube recommended videos list the other day and watched it knowing it's when Reuben Reina set the course record.

Seems very suspicious for a few reasons:

- 9 guys broke 15 that year. Most years ZERO break it and if they do they win by a significant margin

- They're primarily no-names other than Marc Davis, who was only a junior that year

- It's hard to believe someone who didn't otherwise have impressive credentials is running over 20 seconds faster than guys like Verzbicas, Cheserek, Grant Fisher, and Drew Hunter in recent years

- Reina barely even looked tired at the end...I have a hard time believing someone actually smashed the other times without a balls-out effort

Did something change about the course that year? Did someone misplace a marker or

I did some sleuthing on the video and it appears that the 2 mile was in a totally different location (about 100 meters away from the two mile in the other races). I believe the part at the top of the hill didn't go around near the playground it went straight across cutting off about 200m total. I think the race was 3 miles and not 5k for this year almost certainly.

By the way the 1986 course (which was also super fast was the same course as 1985)

The Tully Runners article is great, as are the thoughts from ItsTrue