from the history books:
"Mizuno’s Chief Engineer Takaya Kimura headed to the U.S. in 1994 and began working with Lead Designer Tuan Le to consolidate Mizuno’s technology into one simple and efficient system. The Mizuno Wave was finalized in 1997: the single lightweight plate offered cushioning, stability, and energy return by extending and then returning to its original shape."
I did not know that! wrote:
You might wonder why he's not a billionaire famous for the modern road shoe. He covers that somewhat. It seems that if he was a millionaire at the time he could have made it happen.
For less than $10k he could have had a patent on the idea. He could then have looked to license the idea to a big shoe company where they could build shoes to his design for a certain fee. That’s if he really had this great idea AND if his design worked as well as he claims. There’s no one in their right mind that comes up with a shoe design that let’s someone run significantly faster that then doesn’t want to tell everyone about it and monetize it.
I call BS (as someone who is in the design world who gets to hear all the time about how someone had such and such an idea years ago).
Thing is, he did get patent(s). You haven't heard his story apparently. I'm not specifically telling you that you must, but you seems to doubt something someone is saying. Here's what I'm saying:
I heard a brief recap of the story, spoken by the guy into a phone. Feel free to listen to the linked audio and then answer this:
What is it that you claim is false?
wavy rider wrote:
from the history books:
"Mizuno’s Chief Engineer Takaya Kimura headed to the U.S. in 1994 and began working with Lead Designer Tuan Le to consolidate Mizuno’s technology into one simple and efficient system. The Mizuno Wave was finalized in 1997: the single lightweight plate offered cushioning, stability, and energy return by extending and then returning to its original shape."
This story takes place well after Milliman's story. He actually refers to Mizuno. He won't mention Mizuno or Nike by name although if you listen to it, you will find it obvious which company is being referred to at any point in the story. In fact, 'extending and returning' is a big part of his explanation.
I'm coming across like I am this guy or his agent or something. I reached out to him. This may be a long shot, but it's conceivable he comes here and weighs in.
Joe Jackson wrote:
I did not know that! wrote:
You might wonder why he's not a billionaire famous for the modern road shoe. He covers that somewhat. It seems that if he was a millionaire at the time he could have made it happen.
For less than $10k he could have had a patent on the idea. He could then have looked to license the idea to a big shoe company where they could build shoes to his design for a certain fee. That’s if he really had this great idea AND if his design worked as well as he claims. There’s no one in their right mind that comes up with a shoe design that let’s someone run significantly faster that then doesn’t want to tell everyone about it and monetize it.
I call BS (as someone who is in the design world who gets to hear all the time about how someone had such and such an idea years ago).
Exactly
overcommitted wrote:
GettingFasterDude wrote:
It's not the plate, it's the foam.
It's not the plate, it's the foam.
It's not the plate, it's the foam.
Great, where is this non-plated marathon shoe that is just as fast and as highly regarded as the Next%?
Best example is the Adidas Adios Pro 2.0, used by Kibiwott Kandie to set the current half marathon world record, has a carbon fiber rod instead of a plate. More to the point the foam is obviously the big difference maker. Shoes with EVA foam are just not as good for racing, period.
Hardloper wrote:
overcommitted wrote:
Great, where is this non-plated marathon shoe that is just as fast and as highly regarded as the Next%?
Best example is the Adidas Adios Pro 2.0, used by Kibiwott Kandie to set the current half marathon world record, has a carbon fiber rod instead of a plate. More to the point the foam is obviously the big difference maker. Shoes with EVA foam are just not as good for racing, period.
Right. It doesn't work without better foam. That is why Hoka is behind. That is why plated shoes in the 90s were stiff boards, not bouncy trampolines.
OozmaKappa wrote:
Joe Jackson wrote:
For less than $10k he could have had a patent on the idea. He could then have looked to license the idea to a big shoe company where they could build shoes to his design for a certain fee. That’s if he really had this great idea AND if his design worked as well as he claims. There’s no one in their right mind that comes up with a shoe design that let’s someone run significantly faster that then doesn’t want to tell everyone about it and monetize it.
I call BS (as someone who is in the design world who gets to hear all the time about how someone had such and such an idea years ago).
Exactly
Exactly what? Have you heard him tell his story? No.
Can you point out a specific. Statement he makes that you claim is false? No.
You objection seems to be that you've never heard of him neither had I 26 hours ago. That does not offend me.
This thread, for which I admittedly picked a less-than-ideal title, was not intended to be a contest or debate. I am not asking you who thought of the whole stiff, flexing, and rebounding distance shoe. I just found out who did. Why is this shocking, offensive, or in need of censorship?
By the way, he didn't seem to be torqued off by serious big outfits using the same ideas long after his patent(s) expired. He is pointing fingers at, accusing, blaming, or otherwise smack-talking about nobody that I can tell. The only ones offended are you few who have read the thread but not listened to the story.
Nike was experimenting with similar plate and foam technologies in the 80s. I've seen very rough Nike prototypes with various tries that used early Pegasus uppers - and/or never made it past the midsole stage.
GettingFasterDude wrote:
Malehide wrote:
Then why is the plate even needed?
To stabilize the high foam stack.
Nike has a tall-stack, non-plated ZoomX shoe. It's called the ZoomX Invincible. Apparently it's stable enough without the plate. But it's a slow, wallowy marshmallow.
GettingFasterDude wrote:
OozmaKappa wrote:
...to say the carbon fiber plate is useless is just ignorant.
I didn't say the plate is useless. I said what it does, two posts above yours. All parts of a shoe have a purpose. Some make it faster. Some don't.
So how fast is the super shoe without the plate? Give us some times; some numbers.
Marshmallow time wrote:
GettingFasterDude wrote:
To stabilize the high foam stack.
Nike has a tall-stack, non-plated ZoomX shoe. It's called the ZoomX Invincible. Apparently it's stable enough without the plate. But it's a slow, wallowy marshmallow.
Yup. Thats exactly what happens when you have just ZoomX foam and nothing else.
The reason the Peg Turbo and Vaporfly are so much better than something like the Invincible is because they make use of other materials to bring out the best in the ZoomX foam. For the turbos, its the react + zoomX sandwich. For the Vaporflys, it's the addition of the carbon fiber plate.
Hardloper wrote:
overcommitted wrote:
Great, where is this non-plated marathon shoe that is just as fast and as highly regarded as the Next%?
Best example is the Adidas Adios Pro 2.0, used by Kibiwott Kandie to set the current half marathon world record,
Actually thats the old record. The current record is held by the most talented young runner of our generation, the future GOAT of distance running, Jacob Kiplimo.
Seems this thread, like many, is turning into a Nike commercial.
Marshmallow time wrote:
GettingFasterDude wrote:
To stabilize the high foam stack.
Nike has a tall-stack, non-plated ZoomX shoe. It's called the ZoomX Invincible. Apparently it's stable enough without the plate. But it's a slow, wallowy marshmallow.
No it not. Its actually quite fast, just really heavy.
If it was 200g it would be a great racer.
you must enter a username wrote:
Marshmallow time wrote:
Nike has a tall-stack, non-plated ZoomX shoe. It's called the ZoomX Invincible. Apparently it's stable enough without the plate. But it's a slow, wallowy marshmallow.
No it not. Its actually quite fast, just really heavy.
If it was 200g it would be a great racer.
200 grams is 7 ounces. How much does the ZoomX Invincible weigh now?
To those who poo-poo the plate - without the plate the super shoe is substantial slower. The plate is an integral part in making the super shoe FASTER.
Fair?
This 'plate debate' is all the more reason what Jeff Milliman was historically significant. None of you have listened to the linked interview, have you? I did, and I now know the history of the idea.
I recall Brooks & Etonic, yes, Etonic had plates in a shoe in the 90s. No recollection what they were called but think you could see all of the Brooks plate thru a clear outsole bottom.
Brooks had a pro plate shoe in something like 93/94. In the running mags the advert of the shoe had some images of a pole vaulter vaulting and Brooks claimed that the shoe worked the same way with its carbon fiber plate ....
Proplate Gazelle wrote:
Google Adidas proplate. The Adidas sponsored research was all done by Darren Stefanshyn at Calgary. They launched a few shoes in 2002/2003 including the Proplate Gazelle and adidstar Comp. One of his phd students Geng Luo went to Nike and was behind the 4% shoe. End of story. Any other springs in shoes is just stupid ideas like saying rocket boosters in shoes. Just because I say Rocket Boosters in shoes doesn't mean that in 20 years when people break records in in shoes with rocket boosters that it was my invention. The reality of how these carbon plated shoes is that they do not act like springs.
For more reading:
https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/training/carbon-fibre-plate-tech-the-calgary-connection/For other readers. Either read this or move on. Don't waste your time debating.
First couple of paragraphs in this article bring the entire debate about what a carbon plate in the shoe does or does not do to and end. Thank you for sharing
For those too lazy to read it:
The researchers found that during running and jumping the shoe and foot absorbs energy like a brake by folding up as it hits the ground. The easiest way to fix that was to stiffen the shoe with a carbon fibre plate. Energy loss in the foot and shoe is then mitigated significantly.