Where does this season's crop of runners land on the all time XC list?

Colin leo lex #8#9#10

2-6-8-10

My top 10:

1. Dathan Ritzenhein

2. Chris Solinsky

3. Adam Goucher

4. Ed Cheserek

5. Reuben Reina

6.German Fernandez

7-10. Marc Davis, Lukas Verzbicas, Mike Fout, Drew Hunter (no particular order for these four).

I see no argument that any of the NP boys, or Riley Hough, could hold a candle to any of these runners. The strongest argument is time-based, and frankly I'm not impressed by fast times in cross country. Any course can be fast if you just make it flat and short. I'm not necessarily saying RunningLane was that, but it's useless putting stock in cross country times. Head-to-head competition and times at historic courses are all that matter. All 10 of these runners have better records in those scenarios. Remember, Fernandez set that storied Woodward Park record, then promptly got his a$$ kicked at Foot Locker by Fout and Derrick. The NP boys couldn't break that record even with all four of them running together and focusing on it for the whole season.

Track times don't count or running the same course doesn't count?

Jonathan Commentor wrote:

do any of the Newbury boys land in the all-time top ten? (US high-school XC for clarification)

1. Dathan Ritzenhein

2. Colin Sahlman jogged 2nd fastest time ever at Woodward park then ran an equivalent of the 2nd fastest time ever

3. Nico Young

4. Lukas Verzbicas

5. Leo Young

6. Chris Solinsky

7. German Fernandez

8. Lex Young

9. Drew Hunter

10 (tie) Grant Fisher

10.(tie) Ed Chesereck

No one before 2000 is on the list in my opinion although I can understand why people would say Hulst, Lindgren, Pre, Virgin, or Nelson.

colin, leo, nico, and lex went 12, 10, 10, and 8 seconds faster than davis at woodward. but nope, flat course and super shoes that they don’t wear 😎 id put them in the 100-150 range behind everyone who ran before the 2000s because that was real cross country

attention payer wrote:

Jonathan Commentor wrote:

do any of the Newbury boys land in the all-time top ten? (US high-school XC for clarification)

1. Dathan Ritzenhein

2. Colin Sahlman jogged 2nd fastest time ever at Woodward park then ran an equivalent of the 2nd fastest time ever

3. Nico Young

4. Lukas Verzbicas

5. Leo Young

6. Chris Solinsky

7. German Fernandez

8. Lex Young

9. Drew Hunter

10 (tie) Grant Fisher

10.(tie) Ed Chesereck

No one before 2000 is on the list in my opinion although I can understand why people would say Hulst, Lindgren, Pre, Virgin, or Nelson.

I’d imagine you’re still in HS.

How are any of the Newbury Park guys ahead of German when they continually run slower than him, on the the same course he holds record on? Not only that, he didn’t have any competition and they do.

Also, same for Colin. In what way is he better than Nico? Nico’s 14:28 was much more controlled than Sahlman’s all out effort.

No one before 2000? You think a dude like Lindgren, who ran 13:44 and 150 miles per week wasn’t a stud in cross country?

1. Dathan

2. German

3. Nico

4. Lindgren

5. Chapa

6. Sahlman

7. Lukas

8. Ches

The FL course for 1985 had to have been a bit shorter than for other years. Reina's track PRs are modest compared to others on your list and he beat the slower Mastalir twin by only 4 seconds in that race.

The course for FL was muddy in the year Fernandez finished 3rd and running in such conditions slows some runners more than others.

the password is password wrote:

1. Dathan

2. German

3. Nico

4. Lindgren

5. Chapa

6. Sahlman

7. Lukas

8. Ches

This is an ok list, although I'd put Nico ahead of German (he ran a controlled 14:28 compared to German's all out, collapsing-at-the-end 14:24, and won a national title against a strong field by 14 seconds while German was 3rd at FL). I'd also put Verzbicas in 3rd or 4th, and Ches and/or Hunter should be up there somewhere.

For me:

1. Dathan Ritzenhein

2. Nico Young

3. Gerry Lindgren

4. Lukas Verzbicas

5. Edward Cheserek

6. Chris Solinsky

7. Drew Hunter

8. Craig Virgin

9. Colin Sahlman

Why is Drew Hunter even in the conversation? He only won a single Footlocker title. Fisher has much more right to be in the top 10. He won two titles, including beating Drew Hunter and two very strong fields.

Hunter ran faster and won by a greater margin at FL his senior year than Fisher did in the 2 previous years. So at his peak, I think Hunter was just a little better than Fisher.

Fisher also ran nearly the same times on the same courses Riley Hough did in 2021, and nobody considers Hough to be one of the all-time greats. If Fisher was about as good as Riley Hough, then it would make sense to move Hunter and Fisher down to the 9th/10th spots and move Sahlman and Virgin up one.

blobfish wrote:

Hunter ran faster and won by a greater margin at FL his senior year than Fisher did in the 2 previous years. So at his peak, I think Hunter was just a little better than Fisher.

Fisher also ran nearly the same times on the same courses Riley Hough did in 2021, and nobody considers Hough to be one of the all-time greats. If Fisher was about as good as Riley Hough, then it would make sense to move Hunter and Fisher down to the 9th/10th spots and move Sahlman and Virgin up one.

Remind me again why we care about times in XC? Also the field in Hunter's year was incredibly weak. Like really bad. He has a single FL win against a weak field, how is he possibly in the top 10 of all time?

Why is Ed Ches higher than Fisher, when they have the same high school accolades? Ches' senior year win was less dominant than Fisher. They both won their junior year title in a sprint.

How do you compare across years if you never consider times?

Ritz cracker wrote:

How do you compare across years if you never consider times?

My point is that looking ONLY at times is dumb, since course conditions can change drastically from year to year, and it's silly to compare an XC time unless we know the athlete was going for a record attempt.

Looking at the accomplishments (win/loss record and championship titles) relative to their level of competition is much more accurate. For instance, Ritz ran fast AND he beat some ridiculously good runners in big championships.

How do you know the level of competition without looking at times,

Track performances (these are standardized), how good they were in college, etc.

Seriously, look at the names in the 2015 FL champs that Hunter won. What happened to those guys?