Yes or No: do you think Dave Chappelle is transphobic?

Wuzzle Wuzzle3 wrote:

not at all wrote:

How is he wrong? How many trans men are profiled by police, choked out in the street and then have half the country tell you its acceptable? A black mans life is of less value in this country than saying homophobic things at a concert. People will try to twist what happened with DaBaby but the bottom line is if a black person cannot entertain you their life has even less value than trans/gay persons feelings. You say he's wrong about this, while providing no evidence of any such thing.

How long ago was the civil rights movement? And how long from slavery to the civil rights movement? How long have rich white men been receiving sex changes? You think hes wrong about the speed of progress? You are purely delusional.

how many laws bar black people from bathrooms or playing sports?

No one is arguing that America is a post racial society (except the conservatives looking to assuage their guilt) but to act as if trans people can just be who they are more than black is simply a lie.

I would agree that trans rights have been quite loud the last few years but it that what upsets you? Speed of progress by any marginalize group is not a bad thing. The argument that some people had to suffer for 200 or 100 or 50 years so everyone has to put their time very small minded. Thus, my original point about Chapelle, he is not transphobic, he is close-minded.

Btw- black people don't need to entertain me to have value. that sounds like a "you" problem.

RunRagged wrote:

Tatar.. wrote:

It's an absurd analogy. Blackface is ridicule and the color of your skin is fixed whereas gender roles are social constructions - anyone can wear heels on any given day, they are not 'women's clothes', they are clothes that belong to the wearer.

The concept of 'races' is also social construction and how your skin color relates to race is a social construction but the actual tone of your skin isn't.

But male people who "identify as women" nowadays don't simply "wear heels on any given day" like UK artist Grayson Perry does and the glam rockers of the 70s did. If all they did was dress as they want, then I'd be cheering them on just like I did back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when Marc Bolan, the New York Dolls, Brian Eno, Roxy Music, Rod Stewart, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith and the Cure, the New Romantics, Nirvana and many more all engaged in male "gender bending." And when Eddie Izzard used to say, "these aren't women's clothes, they're my clothes - I bought them."

I agree with you that "the color of your skin is fixed, whereas gender roles are social constructions." But sex is fixed too; sex runs much deeper than race, it's far more significant and involves thousands more physical differences. Sex is also binary, whereas race exists along a continuum just like gender and gender expression do. Billions of people on earth are of mixed race and ethnic ancestry, but we're all either one of the two human sexes - male or female.

Also, the majority of males who adopt a trans identity today aren't imitating women's "gender roles" or gendered clothing - they imitate and want to appropriate women's physical sex characteristics. They mimic our bodies, our voices and the more superficial and stereotyped aspects of what they believe are naturally "feminine" gestures and behaviors, such as the ways they imagine girls and women laugh, sleep, moan during sex, sneeze, cough, sigh and even breathe.

Moreover, they say they actually are women and the world must recognize and respect them as such. Many today further claim that they are biologically female too. They do not believe that those of us who actually are biologically female should have any right to define ourselves, to have conversations and meetings that don't include them, to have sports of our own, or to have any spaces or services whatsoever that exclude them such as female-only loos, change rooms, health care services, shelters, hospital wards, rape refuges, prison cells, nursing home rooms or home care arrangements for those of us who are elderly and disabled.

If and when women say "no, you are not the same as us, you are still male, we are female," many "trans women" get very, very angry and abusive towards us. A majority of them today seem unable to accept that for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy and dignity, we think it's legitimate and justifiable for women and girls to have our own sports and a few places apart from males no matter how those males identify.

These persons also frequently make extremely belittling and misogynistic remarks about women.

Caitlyn Jenner, who is father of six biological children thanks to Jenner's various wives who gestated their children for 9+ months then pushed each one out of their vaginas in an experience that takes a tremendous amount of effort now says: "The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear."

Grace Lavery, who is a "feminist" professor of literature, gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley says: "A woman is anyone who takes the receptive, submissive role in penetrative penile sex."

Andrea Long Chu, darling of the woke literary world and author of the critically acclaimed but IMO highly offensive book Females, says "the barest essentials of femaleness" are “an open mouth, an expectant xsshole, blank, blank eyes.”

Chu also sums up the views of many males who have "transitioned" today when Chu says:"I transitioned for gossip and compliments, lipstick and mascara, for crying at the movies, for being someone’s girlfriend . . . for feeling hot, for getting hit on by butches, for that secret knowledge of which dykes to watch out for, for Daisy Dukes, bikini tops, and all the dresses, and, my god, for the breasts."

How is this not insulting, demeaning, sexist and dehumanizing? How is this not ridiculing women and reducing us to misogynistic stereotypes? Please explain why it it "absurd" to draw the parallels between blackface and the sort of womanface performed by Jenner, Lavery, Chu and thousands of other males today.

Also, why is it that the "gender roles" males who say they "feel like" women are fixated on always seem to boil down to superficial things like heels, clothes, hair, makeup and accessories? Odd that so few of the "trans women" in today's world are clamoring to take on the less glamorous "gender roles" of girls and women like wiping noses, changing diapers, cleaning the house, scrubbing the toilet, doing clerical work and caring for the sick and elderly. Strange that so many envision "womanhood" as being about "tiddies," "whore moans," thigh highs, kitten ears, skirts that "go spinny" and pillow fights but not about motherhood, mastitis, menopause, varicose veins or facing sex discrimination and ageism.

I Win wrote:

Tatar.. wrote:

It's an absurd analogy. Blackface is ridicule and the color of your skin is fixed whereas gender roles are social constructions - anyone can wear heels on any given day, they are not 'women's clothes', they are clothes that belong to the wearer.

The concept of 'races' is also social construction and how your skin color relates to race is a social construction but the actual tone of your skin isn't.

Is race not a social construct? There's some biological basis for the concept of race, but it's obvious, given how the concept of race has been deployed over the years, that it is mostly a social construct. (Were you aware, for instance, that leading scientists used to posit that there was such thing as an "Alpine race"? A "Basque race"? German race, Italian race, Jewish race, etc. If gender is a social construct, race is a social construct.

RunRagged wrote:

Tatar.. wrote:

It's an absurd analogy. Blackface is ridicule and the color of your skin is fixed whereas gender roles are social constructions - anyone can wear heels on any given day, they are not 'women's clothes', they are clothes that belong to the wearer.

The concept of 'races' is also social construction and how your skin color relates to race is a social construction but the actual tone of your skin isn't.

But male people who "identify as women" nowadays don't simply "wear heels on any given day" like UK artist Grayson Perry does and the glam rockers of the 70s did. If all they did was dress as they want, then I'd be cheering them on just like I did back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when Marc Bolan, the New York Dolls, Brian Eno, Roxy Music, Rod Stewart, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith and the Cure, the New Romantics, Nirvana and many more all engaged in male "gender bending." And when Eddie Izzard used to say, "these aren't women's clothes, they're my clothes - I bought them."

I agree with you that "the color of your skin is fixed, whereas gender roles are social constructions." But sex is fixed too; sex runs much deeper than race, it's far more significant and involves thousands more physical differences. Sex is also binary, whereas race exists along a continuum just like gender and gender expression do. Billions of people on earth are of mixed race and ethnic ancestry, but we're all either one of the two human sexes - male or female.

Also, the majority of males who adopt a trans identity today aren't imitating women's "gender roles" or gendered clothing - they imitate and want to appropriate women's physical sex characteristics. They mimic our bodies, our voices and the more superficial and stereotyped aspects of what they believe are naturally "feminine" gestures and behaviors, such as the ways they imagine girls and women laugh, sleep, moan during sex, sneeze, cough, sigh and even breathe.

Moreover, they say they actually are women and the world must recognize and respect them as such. Many today further claim that they are biologically female too. They do not believe that those of us who actually are biologically female should have any right to define ourselves, to have conversations and meetings that don't include them, to have sports of our own, or to have any spaces or services whatsoever that exclude them such as female-only loos, change rooms, health care services, shelters, hospital wards, rape refuges, prison cells, nursing home rooms or home care arrangements for those of us who are elderly and disabled.

If and when women say "no, you are not the same as us, you are still male, we are female," many "trans women" get very, very angry and abusive towards us. A majority of them today seem unable to accept that for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy and dignity, we think it's legitimate and justifiable for women and girls to have our own sports and a few places apart from males no matter how those males identify.

These persons also frequently make extremely belittling and misogynistic remarks about women.

Caitlyn Jenner, who is father of six biological children thanks to Jenner's various wives who gestated their children for 9+ months then pushed each one out of their vaginas in an experience that takes a tremendous amount of effort now says: "The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear."

Grace Lavery, who is a "feminist" professor of literature, gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley says: "A woman is anyone who takes the receptive, submissive role in penetrative penile sex."

Andrea Long Chu, darling of the woke literary world and author of the critically acclaimed but IMO highly offensive book Females, says "the barest essentials of femaleness" are “an open mouth, an expectant xsshole, blank, blank eyes.”

Chu also sums up the views of many males who have "transitioned" today when Chu says:"I transitioned for gossip and compliments, lipstick and mascara, for crying at the movies, for being someone’s girlfriend . . . for feeling hot, for getting hit on by butches, for that secret knowledge of which dykes to watch out for, for Daisy Dukes, bikini tops, and all the dresses, and, my god, for the breasts."

How is this not insulting, demeaning, sexist and dehumanizing? How is this not ridiculing women and reducing us to misogynistic stereotypes? Please explain why it it "absurd" to draw the parallels between blackface and the sort of womanface performed by Jenner, Lavery, Chu and thousands of other males today.

Also, why is it that the "gender roles" males who say they "feel like" women are fixated on always seem to boil down to superficial things like heels, clothes, hair, makeup and accessories? Odd that so few of the "trans women" in today's world are clamoring to take on the less glamorous "gender roles" of girls and women like wiping noses, changing diapers, cleaning the house, scrubbing the toilet, doing clerical work and caring for the sick and elderly. Strange that so many envision "womanhood" as being about "tiddies," "whore moans," thigh highs, kitten ears, skirts that "go spinny" and pillow fights but not about motherhood, mastitis, menopause, varicose veins or facing sex discrimination and ageism.

America's fury wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

But male people who "identify as women" nowadays don't simply "wear heels on any given day" like UK artist Grayson Perry does and the glam rockers of the 70s did. If all they did was dress as they want, then I'd be cheering them on just like I did back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when Marc Bolan, the New York Dolls, Brian Eno, Roxy Music, Rod Stewart, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith and the Cure, the New Romantics, Nirvana and many more all engaged in male "gender bending." And when Eddie Izzard used to say, "these aren't women's clothes, they're my clothes - I bought them."

I agree with you that "the color of your skin is fixed, whereas gender roles are social constructions." But sex is fixed too; sex runs much deeper than race, it's far more significant and involves thousands more physical differences. Sex is also binary, whereas race exists along a continuum just like gender and gender expression do. Billions of people on earth are of mixed race and ethnic ancestry, but we're all either one of the two human sexes - male or female.

Also, the majority of males who adopt a trans identity today aren't imitating women's "gender roles" or gendered clothing - they imitate and want to appropriate women's physical sex characteristics. They mimic our bodies, our voices and the more superficial and stereotyped aspects of what they believe are naturally "feminine" gestures and behaviors, such as the ways they imagine girls and women laugh, sleep, moan during sex, sneeze, cough, sigh and even breathe.

Moreover, they say they actually are women and the world must recognize and respect them as such. Many today further claim that they are biologically female too. They do not believe that those of us who actually are biologically female should have any right to define ourselves, to have conversations and meetings that don't include them, to have sports of our own, or to have any spaces or services whatsoever that exclude them such as female-only loos, change rooms, health care services, shelters, hospital wards, rape refuges, prison cells, nursing home rooms or home care arrangements for those of us who are elderly and disabled.

If and when women say "no, you are not the same as us, you are still male, we are female," many "trans women" get very, very angry and abusive towards us. A majority of them today seem unable to accept that for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy and dignity, we think it's legitimate and justifiable for women and girls to have our own sports and a few places apart from males no matter how those males identify.

These persons also frequently make extremely belittling and misogynistic remarks about women.

Caitlyn Jenner, who is father of six biological children thanks to Jenner's various wives who gestated their children for 9+ months then pushed each one out of their vaginas in an experience that takes a tremendous amount of effort now says: "The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear."

Grace Lavery, who is a "feminist" professor of literature, gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley says: "A woman is anyone who takes the receptive, submissive role in penetrative penile sex."

Andrea Long Chu, darling of the woke literary world and author of the critically acclaimed but IMO highly offensive book Females, says "the barest essentials of femaleness" are “an open mouth, an expectant xsshole, blank, blank eyes.”

Chu also sums up the views of many males who have "transitioned" today when Chu says:"I transitioned for gossip and compliments, lipstick and mascara, for crying at the movies, for being someone’s girlfriend . . . for feeling hot, for getting hit on by butches, for that secret knowledge of which dykes to watch out for, for Daisy Dukes, bikini tops, and all the dresses, and, my god, for the breasts."

How is this not insulting, demeaning, sexist and dehumanizing? How is this not ridiculing women and reducing us to misogynistic stereotypes? Please explain why it it "absurd" to draw the parallels between blackface and the sort of womanface performed by Jenner, Lavery, Chu and thousands of other males today.

Also, why is it that the "gender roles" males who say they "feel like" women are fixated on always seem to boil down to superficial things like heels, clothes, hair, makeup and accessories? Odd that so few of the "trans women" in today's world are clamoring to take on the less glamorous "gender roles" of girls and women like wiping noses, changing diapers, cleaning the house, scrubbing the toilet, doing clerical work and caring for the sick and elderly. Strange that so many envision "womanhood" as being about "tiddies," "whore moans," thigh highs, kitten ears, skirts that "go spinny" and pillow fights but not about motherhood, mastitis, menopause, varicose veins or facing sex discrimination and ageism.

Excellent post. Since it's uncomfortably visceral and not politicized, it'll be lost on this crowd.

opinionated objective person wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

I have no idea, but taking what any comedian says during a comedy show to determine what they really think is foolhardy.

I don't even think he's all that funny, so I'm not defending him because I like him. ANYONE and ANYTHING should be fair game when it comes to comedy. Due to what that person or group or thing is, it is fair to not find it funny, but I don't get being offended at all.

Comedians have made fun of tons of categories to which I belong - Uber smart, super good looking, athletic, musically gifted, wealthy - and I've never been offended. People just need to grow a spine.

@Flagpole - this is your best post! Nice way to add some levity with the last bit too. I agree with what you wrote.

I admit, I do actually find Chappelle funny though, but it's probably because I'm an older millennial (38 yrs old) and have been watching his stuff since 1998 or so.

America's fury wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

But male people who "identify as women" nowadays don't simply "wear heels on any given day" like UK artist Grayson Perry does and the glam rockers of the 70s did. If all they did was dress as they want, then I'd be cheering them on just like I did back in the 70s, 80s and 90s when Marc Bolan, the New York Dolls, Brian Eno, Roxy Music, Rod Stewart, Marilyn Peter Robinson, Robert Smith and the Cure, the New Romantics, Nirvana and many more all engaged in male "gender bending." And when Eddie Izzard used to say, "these aren't women's clothes, they're my clothes - I bought them."

I agree with you that "the color of your skin is fixed, whereas gender roles are social constructions." But sex is fixed too; sex runs much deeper than race, it's far more significant and involves thousands more physical differences. Sex is also binary, whereas race exists along a continuum just like gender and gender expression do. Billions of people on earth are of mixed race and ethnic ancestry, but we're all either one of the two human sexes - male or female.

Also, the majority of males who adopt a trans identity today aren't imitating women's "gender roles" or gendered clothing - they imitate and want to appropriate women's physical sex characteristics. They mimic our bodies, our voices and the more superficial and stereotyped aspects of what they believe are naturally "feminine" gestures and behaviors, such as the ways they imagine girls and women laugh, sleep, moan during sex, sneeze, cough, sigh and even breathe.

Moreover, they say they actually are women and the world must recognize and respect them as such. Many today further claim that they are biologically female too. They do not believe that those of us who actually are biologically female should have any right to define ourselves, to have conversations and meetings that don't include them, to have sports of our own, or to have any spaces or services whatsoever that exclude them such as female-only loos, change rooms, health care services, shelters, hospital wards, rape refuges, prison cells, nursing home rooms or home care arrangements for those of us who are elderly and disabled.

If and when women say "no, you are not the same as us, you are still male, we are female," many "trans women" get very, very angry and abusive towards us. A majority of them today seem unable to accept that for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy and dignity, we think it's legitimate and justifiable for women and girls to have our own sports and a few places apart from males no matter how those males identify.

These persons also frequently make extremely belittling and misogynistic remarks about women.

Caitlyn Jenner, who is father of six biological children thanks to Jenner's various wives who gestated their children for 9+ months then pushed each one out of their vaginas in an experience that takes a tremendous amount of effort now says: "The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear."

Grace Lavery, who is a "feminist" professor of literature, gender and women's studies at UC Berkeley says: "A woman is anyone who takes the receptive, submissive role in penetrative penile sex."

Andrea Long Chu, darling of the woke literary world and author of the critically acclaimed but IMO highly offensive book Females, says "the barest essentials of femaleness" are “an open mouth, an expectant xsshole, blank, blank eyes.”

Chu also sums up the views of many males who have "transitioned" today when Chu says:"I transitioned for gossip and compliments, lipstick and mascara, for crying at the movies, for being someone’s girlfriend . . . for feeling hot, for getting hit on by butches, for that secret knowledge of which dykes to watch out for, for Daisy Dukes, bikini tops, and all the dresses, and, my god, for the breasts."

How is this not insulting, demeaning, sexist and dehumanizing? How is this not ridiculing women and reducing us to misogynistic stereotypes? Please explain why it it "absurd" to draw the parallels between blackface and the sort of womanface performed by Jenner, Lavery, Chu and thousands of other males today.

Also, why is it that the "gender roles" males who say they "feel like" women are fixated on always seem to boil down to superficial things like heels, clothes, hair, makeup and accessories? Odd that so few of the "trans women" in today's world are clamoring to take on the less glamorous "gender roles" of girls and women like wiping noses, changing diapers, cleaning the house, scrubbing the toilet, doing clerical work and caring for the sick and elderly. Strange that so many envision "womanhood" as being about "tiddies," "whore moans," thigh highs, kitten ears, skirts that "go spinny" and pillow fights but not about motherhood, mastitis, menopause, varicose veins or facing sex discrimination and ageism.

Excellent post. Since it's uncomfortably visceral and not politicized, it'll be lost on this crowd.

going against the grain here wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Chapelle raised the question women are constantly told it's bigoted and transphobic to ask: why when liberal-minded people today widely recognize that it's offensive and morally wrong for white people to don blackface in order to mimic, demeaningly stereotype, dehumanize and punch down on black people do those same supposedly liberal-minded people say that when men to do the equivalent to women, it's not just acceptable - it's praiseworthy, brave and progressive?

Great question and I think you've uncovered the fact that simply putting dark make up on your face is not morally wrong.

Sure we all act like blackface is terrible because it harkens back to minstrel shows, and that form of blackface was and still is very much wrong, but we've removed all nuance from the conversation. If my kid wants to dress like his favorite black athlete for Halloween he can wear the uniform and that's fine, but put on dark make up to complete to ensemble and it's an abomination? The kid would be celebrating this person, not mocking them.

Or an actor can't play a person of another race? I understand there are valid representation issues surrounding this and I find those objections valid, but it does seem at least theoretically possible for a great actor to play someone of another race. There is a common humanity there that can shine through. Blackface in that context - in which the subject is not being demeaned - is morally wrong? No, it's not.

Now I'm not going to don blackface myself because I understand the world we live in, but let's not pretend something is worse than it is. And to your original point, we are all against blackface but not against men transitioning to men - well, good point, I would argue neither is actually that bad when you break it down logically.