After this morning’s result I’m struggling to find enjoyment in following this sport

What if the ability to run fast conferred an evolutionary advantage in the past, but no longer confers any such advantage (which is likely the case)? The sampling point would still stand, but would evolution still be pushing humans to faster times?

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept that prevents people from being fined or imprisoned without proof that they did he thing they were accused of. It doesn't mean a suspected person can't be guilty and just getting away with something. Imagine you have $100 in cash sitting on your kitchen counter when you leave for work on a day when you have a house cleaner coming. When you get home the house is clean and the $100 is missing. Unless you have security cameras you can never prove the cleaner took that money. She could never be prosecuted for doing it but no one would think you were being unreasonable to be convinced she did and you never hired her again.

We pretty much all agree that there's a doping problem in the sport but that we rarely know specifically who is doing it. But a mind blowing performance by an athlete from a country with almost no out of competition testing, with EPO readily available, and a manager who has been suspected of doping his athletes for decades, may in fact be clean. But thinking she's not is far from unreasonable.

Good question, answer is Yes. The second postulate above is not making the survival of the fittest argument, but one only relying on running not being detrimental for survival.

astro wrote:

We have all seen these type of doped up times before.

Examples? Names? Busts?

You should work for WADA - you don't even need a test to determine who is doping/who is not! What a gift!

For the record, the Guardian article was published almost five years ago, in early 2017.

Kind of a harsh response…

Matter of perspective. Yours is that any doping is bad and East Africans are doping under the radar but Americans are not doping at all even under the radar.

Mine is that all you can do in sport is to institute rules and try to enforce them uniformly while living in the real world of sovereign rights. That is the game. They play it better. I don’t have a problem doping under WADA limits and think most everyone does it.

That said, it’s a stretch to think America can’t use its enormous geopolitical muscle to better implement random out of competition testing for East African runners. It’s not like it’s not being done at all, but I’m open to believing that there is more corruption there (but am not sure).

Where did you ever get the idea that my perspective is that Americans aren't doping? It's not even remotely my perspective. I'm as suspicious of performances by Nike athletes as I am of those of East Africans. Yes, all a sport can do is enforce its rules uniformly but that's not happening when you have wide variations in the frequency of out of competition testing between countries.

I also hold one more unpopular perspective: If it is the case — and that’s a big if — that East Africans are doping more under the radar than Americans and getting away with it, in the grand scheme, the cost to America is economic; East African runners earn more and gain more glory than their American counterparts.

The value to the world of seeing relatively poor African peoples dominate a most elemental human sport like running is worth the cost. There’s a billion African whose pride and inspiration is worth the loss of income and glory to western runners is tolerable.

Deer WADA,

Please hire a private investigator to follow Gidey around. It won’t take much effort to find what you are looking for.

Thanks in advance,

Everyone else.

misso wrote:

I also hold one more unpopular perspective: If it is the case — and that’s a big if — that East Africans are doping more under the radar than Americans and getting away with it, in the grand scheme, the cost to America is economic; East African runners earn more and gain more glory than their American counterparts.

The value to the world of seeing relatively poor African peoples dominate a most elemental human sport like running is worth the cost. There’s a billion African whose pride and inspiration is worth the loss of income and glory to western runners is tolerable.

Lol. That is some twisted affirmative action.

Sorry, meant to put a question mark on my assumption of your perspective. Sounds like we agree everyone is probably doping, you are convinced their random testing is broken, and I’m open to that possibility but am not sure that, if not for that, they still won’t dominate the sport.

(And even if that were true, let them have it I say.)

Reasonable solution: Stop following the sport.

Unreasonable solution: Ban Africans from track and field.

I dont disagree but what i think is assumed (rather correctly i think) is as people get faster, its not a straight line. Saying 1/2 marathon came down from 73 to 69 is not the same as 65 to 63. The 100M world record isnt going to fall by a second just because it did 90 years ago. There is usually a little diminishing returns as a record gets faster and faster eventually approaching some level of diminishing returns. Corollary to this for me is when one genetic freak is running away from other genetic freaks like they are standing still. See: SHassan, CSemenya, The best should not be far apart in 2021 IMO. Unless a tiny sport. Oh, and also a ton of people dope we are finding ot.

epo giddy wrote:

misso wrote:

I also hold one more unpopular perspective: If it is the case — and that’s a big if — that East Africans are doping more under the radar than Americans and getting away with it, in the grand scheme, the cost to America is economic; East African runners earn more and gain more glory than their American counterparts.

The value to the world of seeing relatively poor African peoples dominate a most elemental human sport like running is worth the cost. There’s a billion African whose pride and inspiration is worth the loss of income and glory to western runners is tolerable.

Lol. That is some twisted affirmative action.

You could analogize that way, but a big difference from AA is that there is nothing preventing America from doing what East African ADAs are being suspected of doing. AA is about correcting opportunity inequities.

Where do people think the women's half should be given that men are under 58 now? Women are entering a time where they've been able to train with set ups as good as any male pro. So they're catching up & running fast times. Gidey is a huge talent. Has run fast on the roads. 3rd in Tokyo is gross conditions after trying to push the pace. I think it's fair that someone like her runs 1:03-mid/high without super shoes in this day & age. Perfect day for running. Pacers the entire way (to the ire of the commentator).

I think this result makes sense. I'm not naive. Doping is a huge issue. But it's too disheartening to just attack good results with a doping first mentality. I'm going to take results for what they are & go off on anybody who is caught cheating.

Oh I don't know. How about East Germany which was once attributed to hard work and clean living (LOL), professional cycling since the early 1990s (Indurain, Pantani, Riis, Armsrong, Contador, etc.), Michelle Smith, Ma's Army....The thing is most of these were not busts based on positive tests. East Germany was discovered when the Berlin Wall fell and the national archives were uncovered. Riis was a confession. Armstrong a confession under indictment. Indurain has never admitted it, but the pedigree is certainly there (his team worked with Dr. Ferrari's mentor). Ma's Army is still just extremely strong suspicion, to the point of reasonable certainty, although no confessions have been forthcoming yet. There have been EPO related busts in distance running, but it is just tip of the iceberg as with cycling. Unless you have a criminal scandal (Balco, Festina, Armstrong indictment, etc,) you will very rarely catch it. And even when you catch it (Contador, Operacion Puerta), there is deniability. So you are typically left with reasonable suspicion, performance that do not seem natural where an athlete blows away other world class athletes, where a performance fits historically, whether the performance can be credibly squared with prior performances that create a baseline. And as we saw in cycling or during baseball's "live ball" era, each a much more high profile and more scrutinized sport, EVERYONE will dope if that is needed to stay in the game, win or be competitive. And they will cheat denying it to the grave.

So forgive me if I and others are justifiably very cynical about an alleged super historic, incredible, other worldly distance running performance ( as it has been described) from the current cast of characters. (Hassan catching the top 1500 runners at the Olympics like they were standing still is still my favorite; even Pantani and Ma's army would have blushed). But keep the faith, and as Armstrong once said, "I feel for you if you cannot beleive in these athletes." LOL.

misso wrote:

epo giddy wrote:

Lol. That is some twisted affirmative action.

You could analogize that way, but a big difference from AA is that there is nothing preventing America from doing what East African ADAs are being suspected of doing. AA is about correcting opportunity inequities.

There is though. Not enough corruption at the ADA level and lack of access to epo and support systems around it.

I was going to write a post about balancing between the utter knee-jerk "They're a cheater!" response of some to EVERY impressive performance at ever level above HS, and the annoyingly self-righteous, "Then just don't watch" (and yes, "I feel for you if you cannot believe in these athletes") replies on the other side.

But it is true that the skeptics have a HUGE pile of evidence - a good taste of which is provided above - to justify their skepticism.

So, to the DBs who reach for "Cheater!" too soon and too assuredly, I'd say, "Consider backing off A BIT."

And to the self-righteous, I'm not sure that there is ANY better retort than the Lance quote above. If you sound JUST like the lying guy who cheated his pants off and treated others horribly while doing so, you MIGHT not have as unassailable (and righteous) position as you think.