Long runs - vs mileage.

It depends. If you’ve only been running for a few years consistently you can still develop a lot aerobically. I also think 7:15 is likely too fast. My PRs are 15:45,32:45,1:12 my long runs/easy runs are typically 7:30-7:45 pace.

If you can do 5:50 for 9 miles no problem turn that 15 miler into a progression run. For hour progress from 8:00-7:00 minute mile pace, than a progression run down from 7:00-5:30 pace for 30 minutes and throw in a mile or two cool down after all that. That would total about 15 miles and mess around with doing some surges and off/ons too if your focus is on the 10k.

If racing 5k I would say no, for racing 10k @33, it is a considerable time of hard efforts and it would normally be necessary to support this with some long runs. Maybe not very long ones, but. Now, if the workouts incl WU and CD are long they can offer the same. I definately think the long run should not interfere with the workouts. One option is to run it easy enough to reduce recovery needs.

Does it need to be such a difference? I don't think either quite hits the mark.

I think you need to run over an hour but don't need to go over 90 min.

12 miles @6:20-30 is enough if you're getting quality workouts in.

I guess I was wondering if an easy long run is needed if there is sufficient volume elsewhere - example few days of my training:(NB I don't follow a weekly cycle as have a chaotic work/study schedule, but usually have 1 hard day followed by 2 easy days with 1 day off every 7-9days if that makes any sense!)

15-16km easy, strides

AM : 2mi warm up, 6mi tempo, 3mi cooldown PM: 40 min elliptical (HR148), weights

15-16km easy, core

AM: 11km easy+plyos/strides PM: 7km easy

AM: 8*1k/1min recovery @ 10k pace (Total 11mi for day) PM: 40 min elliptical (HR148), strength

15-16km easy

Up to 10 k racing there is absolutely not necessary to run long runs more than 70-80 min .Boost the mitochondria and enzymes needed for the energy process enough .

Why do you want to make it either a 15 mile run at 7:15 OR 9 miles at 5:50? Do both.

Lydiard would vehemently disagree with you. Look at his schedules --- even during sharpening phase he does a long 16- 18 mile run at a person's best aerobic pace once a week. Go slow, enjoy the scenery and get fitter while you do so. (Creates more blood capillaries which transport oxygen during exercise.)

You are currently addicted to shorter, faster distance runs that don't do what the longer, slower run does. Some people never get it and you could be one of them.

w0efuu wrote:

Lydiard would vehemently disagree with you. Look at his schedules --- even during sharpening phase he does a long 16- 18 mile run at a person's best aerobic pace once a week. Go slow, enjoy the scenery and get fitter while you do so. (Creates more blood capillaries which transport oxygen during exercise.)

You are currently addicted to shorter, faster distance runs that don't do what the longer, slower run does. Some people never get it and you could be one of them.

from everything i've ever read, lydiard does not really do SLOW. paces for easy runs/ long runs seem to be maybe 1:00 to 1:30 slower than 5k pace. This is fairly similar to the way Salazar had rupp and farah doing their daily mileage.

So for a 33 minute 10k guy, assume 15:45 to 16:00 5k guy, this would be 5:05 to 5:10 pace, plus 1-1:30. Lets just say, basically 6:00 to 6:30 would be the pace lydiard would have his guys doing the work.

maybe i've misinterpreted something along the way. It is not a training style I've ever worked with.

so if you do this for the recommended 75 to 90 minutes, you are going to be somewhere between 11.5 to 15 miles.

I agree and it resonnates with something I just listened to. Marius Bakken ran 13.06 and many just slightly slower 5k races. He did not really respond well until he focused on threshold training with very little 5k race specific training. As he explained, the most important factor for fast 5ks is not the one adapted from 5k race specific running, but from the aerobic training. His target was to maximize the threshold speed as this was the best indicator for fast 5k running. Aerobic training is several things, but his model was to maximize threshold training volume @3.5 mmol max. He also responded well to intervals between 45s to 10min, beating continuous running. He also ran easy really easy not seeing the big benefit in running slow vs slower in terms of training running efficiency and prepping the legs ligaments, etc. He did no long runs, but thought that racing above 5k would need it.

10k is even closer to the threshold pace so it makes even more sense to focus this way. He thougth as far as his experienced went that running too much thresholds or reps @4 mmol or above was detrimental to long term development of thr threshold. He also thought prepping for racing could be done very quickly with race specific work close to races, so he used it, but just limited.

high school xc coach wrote:

from everything i've ever read, lydiard does not really do SLOW. paces for easy runs/ long runs seem to be maybe 1:00 to 1:30 slower than 5k pace. This is fairly similar to the way Salazar had rupp and farah doing their daily mileage.

This is about the pace at aerobic threshold (VT1, LT1 around 2mmol).

There is still no evidence what is better for the long run:

Running at 1mmol, 1.5mmol , 2mmol or close above 2mmol.

As running close above 2mmol is quite more demanding as close below 2mmol, i have the feeling that running close below 2mmol is maybe the best option and compromise ...

Haven't really followed Lydiard but from experience this would be quite difficult for me. I am a 15:30 5k guy but could not do all my "easy" runs at 6:00-6:30 pace. I do my long run in that range but not my daily runs. Would kill me.

A good thread on this topic:

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1890688

I do a long run every week of 90 minutes to 2 hours, which for me is 11 to 15 miles. I take it quite easy and leave faster stuff for tempo and intervals.

I guess I should add that I have a huge mismatch between my aerobic development and my speed. I doubt I could break 68 for a 400, but have run 33min 10k, 15:50 5k. (mostly due to being self coached and the pandemic - two years of lots of miles and tempos but no racing/track have made me strong but slow.) So I guess I feel that I'm going to get more gains by focusing on faster running, rather than more slogging of mileage. As a 'slowtwitch' runner looking to race 10ks I know it would not do me much good to cut mileage and just do a bunch of 200s, but equally think that my aerobic capacity is not my limiting factor, rather my ability to express my endurance at faster race paces.