Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/17/21

I keep it on but my easy day watch race only has distance and HR. I try not to cheat and look at pace. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes my curiosity gets the best of me.

i typically use just the HR screen on my easy runs to keep my effort in check. i started doing this about a year ago and i think it's been good for me. i would like to think that even if i had pace displayed i wouldn't push, but the subconscious is a powerful force and i know that.

i definitely can identify with the purist mindset of no gps, but i honestly think i benefit from being able to monitor pace on tempo stuff and within races. in my scholastic racing days i always trained with a watch but never raced with it. i tended to run wildly uneven splits. i think the combination of GPS technology and maturity has helped me run remarkably responsible even splits in my adult racing efforts. which i know you could do with a timex, but that takes a little more effort haha

One way I trained myself to NOT look at the watch was to program pace/HR alarms. So on easy days, I set an upper HR limit (or pace) and just go. If I hit that upper limit, a short vibrate on the wrist means I should back off... it's like having a coach monitoring me and tell me to "relax." I never have to peek.

PS

No beer here.

Haha! I bolded the above for emphasis because this is something that I've never understood. I've personally never been able to know what marathon pace is in training. At least for me, Marathon Pace feels wayyyyyyyyyy different in training than in a race. For example, if I go out for a 60 minute run tomorrow at perceived marathon effort and give it a real true effort, it will end up significantly slower than what the same effort will yield on race day. Consequently, if I go out and run at whatever pace I know I can likely handle in a marathon based on my experience, I would find that pace to be absolutely GRUELING and very difficult. Actual race day MP feels very, VERY different in training than on race day, at least for me. Maybe I'm just weird. So I end up training slower when prepping at "marathon effort" in training and I'm pretty sure it doesn't hurt me but who knows??

I've had similar experiences to you when running by feel with my first, second miles being right on eventual pace. It just seems to magically work out. You just have to have faith in yourself not to over-do or under-do it by feel. I think a lot of us are wayyy better at this naturally than we give ourselves credit for. I just spot checked my last half marathon race in July, run entirely by feel. My first mile (5:45) was 2 seconds slower than my eventual average pace (5:43) on a downhill course (-1.8% grade). My last marathon looked like it was going to finish similarly but I had Guinness World Record-like blisters on both feet in the final 8 miles that slowed me down quite a bit, but still wasn't too wildly off. First mile 6:22 with eventual average pace 6:28.

Coach Jeff ROC wrote:

Sub 6:00: Are you doing anything in terms of stretches/strengthening for the hammy/ankle/PF stuff?

I should be, right?

Ankle/PF are fine, just the shock of hitting the track/hills after a gap.

Does anyone have good no-equipment hamstring strengthening exercises? Normally I’d be doing hamstring curls at the gym, but still no access.

BHViking wrote:

Actual race day MP feels very, VERY different in training than on race day, at least for me. ...

I've had similar experiences to you when running by feel with my first, second miles being right on eventual pace. It just seems to magically work out. You just have to have faith in yourself ....

I think for nearly everyone, race-day MP is gonna feel very different from that same pace in the midst of training. Running on "tapered" legs is a big factor, plus race-day magic (the excitement, chance to run with or chase down competitors, etc.).

Remember Smoove, who posted here for a few years? He followed Jack Daniels' program, and had to enter half-marathon races in order to maintain MP for the requisite training distance. He could not do it on a solo run.

Jack Daniels, though, admits that MP pace in training offers no physiological benefit beyond an easy run. He says the main benefit is psychological. Pete Pfitzinger says the benefit is psychological, plus gets the body accustomed to that exact pace.

I say, psychologically it's more likely to be HARMFUL to attempt true MP in training (for the duration the plans prescribe). For most people, it's way too difficult, or impossible. For a neophyte, particularly, the difficulty or failure will foster doubt and fear.

I mentioned in a previous post that prior to running 2:56:03 at age 43, I had run a 14-mile loop at 7:05 (actually was 7:02 pace -- I looked it up). I was experienced enough to KNOW that meant I could easily run a sub-3 marathon (6:52 pace).

I say race-day magic and tapering benefits MOST runners. But for some, maybe not as much. Five years ago, outsiderunner had been trying to break 3 hours, but narrowly missed at NYC. When he posted his training paces, I was astounded. For me they would translate to 2:45 on race day!

Well, on second thought, some race-day magic for him, too, as he ran 2:44 a year later, as I recall.

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Regarding self-trust, the subconscious mind and body is incredibly complex and incredibly powerful. Trust it! Consider the "simple" task of tossing a bean-bag ("corn hole" game). I'm as uncoordinated and unathletic as anyone who was ever existed, yet if I don't THINK, and just look to where I'm tossing, my brain will automatically judge the distance and direction via binocular optic input, judge the mass of the bean-bag based on the effort required to counteract the small gravitational force acting on the bean-bag, calculate the force and trajectory necessary to overcome gravity and atmospheric resistance, and coordinate the contraction of hundreds (thousands?) of individual muscle fibers in order to land the bean-bag perfectly on target.

If I allow my conscious brain to take over, I wildly miss every time.

Likewise, on race day, the unimaginable computing power of the brain, tied with all the biological input, can gauge your aerobic efficiency, your fuel stores, the anticipated duration of the event, etc., and accurately set the appropriate pace. :)

Trust it!

You can do body weight good mornings. And if wanna add a little weight get a milk jug of water or something heavy

I will do this at my next marathon in February. It is a loop course and will help me improve pacing!

Allen,

The idea that marathon pace offers no physiological benefit doesn't seem to be in fashion these days. Even Daniels has bi weekly 10M runs in his 5k plans these days.

It also depends how we define M pace. A VDOT converted M pace early in a cycle can get seriously close to LT pace for a lot of people. If it is a true "by feel what I can run a marathon in today" definition then I guess it is a different story.

I’m a slave to using my watch and time for anything from easy runs or fast. But thanks to truly keeping it easy and getting a range of paces allowed to run for easy days I just measure a lot of runs by time. Helps me prepare what I might need nutritionally or to listen to for a podcast

6 mile shakeout? I got enough time to listen to 45-50 minutes of my JRPG report

12 mile run? I can listen to the newest episode of elite files by BeersAndMiles

24 Mile long run? Throwback 2000s Spotify playlist

highhoppingworm wrote:

Allen,

The idea that marathon pace offers no physiological benefit doesn't seem to be in fashion these days. Even Daniels has bi weekly 10M runs in his 5k plans these days.

“So, you might say the main benefit of M running is mental, helping you gain confidence at the pace you plan to race in a coming marathon. Physiological benefits are really not different from those gained during E running.”

Excerpt From: Jack Daniels. “Daniels' Running Formula.” Apple Books.

So it's not that there are no physiological benefits, but that they are similar to those of easy runs.

I think Daniels has been sneaking stuff into his training plans based on the training development of other coaches without updating the text itself.

10M every 2 weeks is a HARD workout. Like a really freaking hard workout. Furthermore why would a 5k runner need to get the psychological benefit of running a pace they never run?

Sub threshold training in the vicinity of Daniels M pace is something employed pretty consistently by lots of coaches/elites at this point.

Here is the thread of all threads on the subject...many of the regulars from this thread participated.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8230443&page=2

I personally have become a big believer in not having a small number of narrow pace ranges. I really liked how accessible Daniels was but don't think I'll ever use one of his plans again.

AverageForFun wrote:

I’m a slave to using my watch and time for anything from easy runs or fast. But thanks to truly keeping it easy and getting a range of paces allowed to run for easy days I just measure a lot of runs by time. Helps me prepare what I might need nutritionally or to listen to for a podcast

6 mile shakeout? I got enough time to listen to 45-50 minutes of my JRPG report

12 mile run? I can listen to the newest episode of elite files by BeersAndMiles

24 Mile long run? Throwback 2000s Spotify playlist

I'm also a podcast and spotify guy... and additionally an "audible" audiobook guy. With my Apple Watch running the workoutdoors app and aftershokz headphones, I can head out the door feeling unencumbered. I'm free to listen to something or not and I can ignore the watch metrics or have whatever metrics available on my wrist... or spoken into my ear at pre-programmed intervals. For example, I can set the app to tell me my heart rate once every 3 minutes... or the average pace for a lap every 30 seconds... or only when I leave a range of values for a certain metric...whatever I want... without breaking stride or looking down at my wrist. Very geeky and techy, but the result is that I almost never look at my watch. I can focus on the run or distract myself depending on how I feel, I'm confident I'll have collected all relevant data, and, when necessary, a voice in my head gives me pertinent updates. It's pretty much ideal, IMO.

highhoppingworm wrote:

Here is the thread of all threads on the subject...many of the regulars from this thread participated.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8230443&page=2

I personally have become a big believer in not having a small number of narrow pace ranges. I really liked how accessible Daniels was but don't think I'll ever use one of his plans again.

Good link!

I've followed a lot of training plans in my long and mediocre career. JD's 2Q has been a staple of mine for about the past 5 years BUUUUT I have long given up on following it religiously because, I agree, there are some workouts that are just too...um... biblical. Actual GMP has always been waaay too daunting for me, like BHViking describes above. I end up emotionally scarred and distraught. But after a lot of experience, it becomes easier to translate a plan to your personal benefit and interpret the meaning of workout results whether or not you hit the targets for the day.

Also prob depends on the type of runner. A speed based distance runner will prob be added by M pace tempos more than a super slow twitch marathoner type. I’m adding more longer M pace stuff this build. It’s one thing I have never done In training. All my best vdots are in short races so I’m hoping it helps

Wheres the new thread??