Please help fix my marathon training LetsRun

15 to 25 mpw throughout the pandemic with no workouts at all, all easy running... Definitely not ideal base building, but should be able to run more consistently high mileage with things being more open now

No sauna protocols, just trained through hot and humid summers.... But I did try to run earlier in the morning and later at night to avoid the worst of it. Most marathons start pretty early in the day, so would think that running at similar times would be most optimal for conditioning my body

Have you spent extended amounts of time in saunas in preparation for hot races?? Do you think you were able to improve your performances through doing so?

Definitely went out too fast in NYC...first mile was sub-7 over the Verrazano, followed by 6:16!! coming down the bridge into Brooklyn... Didn't realize how good I could feel with the taper, almost made the same mistake in Chicago, but made much more of an effort to slow down this time around...

Thanks for the ideas around more optimal training sessions...will have to give those a shot next cycle for sure... It's interesting you advocate for a shorter buildup, suppose having a more consistent base and just running more throughout the year could do more to contribute to increased fitness at this point

Training log from my peak mileage week during Chicago build up:

M: Rest day

TU: 11.3 mi @ 8:07/mi

W: 4 x 5 km workout, total of 15.2 mi

THU: 8.1 mi recovery run @ 8:39/mi

F: 5-4-3-2-1 km workout, total of 12.7 mi

SAT: 8.3 mi @ 8:43/mi

SUN: 23.3 mi @ 7:57/mi

Total: 79 miles

For the taper, just one run at marathon pace a week beforehand - e.g. 1 mi w/u, 2 miles @ MP, 1 mi c/d. And even during this run didn't really feel comfortable running sub 7...probably should have taken that as a sign...All other runs during the week at easy pace.

Is there some other way I could think about optimizing my tapering strategy?

I'm 5'8" and around ~135 lbs when I ran NYC. Not sure about Chicago weight, but I was pretty damn skinny and have to guess I was around the same weight as NYC....

Not sure if I could blame the heat and humidity for 12 minutes added to my time though?? And I started crashing at Mile 16 in Chicago, would have hoped to be able to keep my pace consistent beyond that point...

Makes sense that more steady runs could be more beneficial for marathon training... I do like being in decent shape for shorter distances as well though, hence maybe why I view intervals as almost a reprieve...gives me a chance to do more speedy stuff, break up the monotony

I actually did have five 20+ mile runs during the Chicago cycle, just didn't list them all out in my OP. And I had one day where I had a mile race and warm up, cool down, and Long run added together, total mileage for the day added up to 24 miles. Another day where my long run was 23.3 miles. So maybe my body really does need overdistance (26-27 miles like another poster suggested) to be able to cover the Marathon distance effectively...

Agree that seems it'd be good for me to focus on 5K to half marathon for a bit.. think there's a lot of room for improvement there and would ultimately help my Marathon fitness.

Interesting that you think my long runs during my second buildup were too fast... On another site, people were commenting that I was definitely dawdling too much on my long runs before Chicago, and I needed to inject some quality into them... Think there can be a nice mixed balance for sure, but given how much worse I ran in Chicago than New York, I think I may lean towards quicker pace on most long runs...

And thanks for sharing the insights around hydration, I do wear a running vest with a water bladder on my training long runs, so I'm able to practice a consistent hydration strategy with my gels during those runs...I do grab water at aid stations even when I'm not taking down a gel, but I do only take a few sips of water to finish the gel rather than the full cup. I thought that downing so much water could contribute to stomach problems, which I thought I felt to some extent during the Chicago race... But maybe I have it backwards??

silvery gold wrote:

Sorry if I missed it, but I don't see what you have been doing in between marathon build-ups. Given that your first week of about 3-4 months of training is around 35 mpw, I'd wonder what your base mileage was like in the other 35-40 weeks of the year.

If you are barely running (25-30 mpw), that would explain it. It doesn't matter that you are peaking at 70+ mpw if in the off-season you only put in 600-700 miles. That you fade in the final 10k but have decent HM times further gives credence that your body can't absorb the full effect of your peak.

Indeed I did not do much running in between the buildups, 15-25 mpw with no workouts... Pandemic pause of serious training definitely affected my fitness to a large extent

Charlesvdw wrote:

OP said he ran 10 under 39 min, not under 40 min.

I think it was a mistake to do a 18:35 5k effort the weekend before. Too hard.

Funnily enough it was another letsrun thread that gave me the idea that I'd be able to recover from a full-out 5K effort a weekend out from a goal marathon race...

mazuka487 wrote:

Definitely went out too fast in NYC...first mile was sub-7 over the Verrazano, followed by 6:16!! coming down the bridge into Brooklyn... Didn't realize how good I could feel with the taper, almost made the same mistake in Chicago, but made much more of an effort to slow down this time around...

Thanks for the ideas around more optimal training sessions...will have to give those a shot next cycle for sure... It's interesting you advocate for a shorter buildup, suppose having a more consistent base and just running more throughout the year could do more to contribute to increased fitness at this point

Thanks for the reply.

Definitely try to be consistent and shorten the build up. When you are in good 5k shape with 15 - 16 mile long runs here and there you are able to get into very marathon shape in 8 - 10 weeks.

Do not race a 5k 1 week out. Try a 10k race 2 weeks out.

Do not taper too much. You have intensity, density of workouts and volume. I would try to only cut volume. You will feel snap in your legs but rested, strong and confident. I usually did a very little workout 3 days out. I know every person is different, but perhaps you got stale by cutting the intensity too much and only jogging.

Example: When you usually do 2-3 hard efforts every week I would still advise something roughly like this for the taper:

2nd last week: Tuesday 5 x 600 at 10 - 5kish pace, Thursday 8 - 10 miles MP, Saturday longish easy

last week: Monday 5 x k at a bit slower than MP to a bit quicker than MP, Thursday 5 x 400 10k pace...

Just some food for thoughs.

A nice thread in my opinion!

Pikachu

mazuka487 wrote:

No sauna protocols, just trained through hot and humid summers.... But I did try to run earlier in the morning and later at night to avoid the worst of it. Most marathons start pretty early in the day, so would think that running at similar times would be most optimal for conditioning my body

Have you spent extended amounts of time in saunas in preparation for hot races?? Do you think you were able to improve your performances through doing so?

I spent a winter training through awful conditions, only to have my spring marathon ruined bc it happened to fall on the first hot and humid day of the spring. I tend to struggle after mile 18 when it's over 70 deg fahrenheit with even a hint of humidity.

After doing some research, I discovered that a lot of elite groups doing "sauna protocols" to prepare for hot/humid conditions. It's common to start out in the sauna four to six weeks in advance of the race and really ramp up with about two weeks to go (20ish minutes and longer is common).

My gym has a steam room that get miserably hot and humid, so I'll start using that a month out before every 'thon. It very well could be a placebo, but I think it helps on race day.