Age 5000m 10000m
22 14:39 30:42
25 13:59 30:10
26 13:47 29:06
27 13:20 28:07
29 13:10 27:27
Wow, they have found the magic formula how to develop a mediocre junior into a world-class runner or their drug program is really as good as many say.
Age 5000m 10000m
That doesn't strike me as ridiculous progression. Looks like a talented guy (15:07 is hardly mediocre for a 19 year old)has worked hard for 10 years (probably got 40,000+ miles in) and is now reaping the rewards. I'll probably get loads of 'how naive are you' posts, but 'any' dedicated person who has luck with injuries can run well (for their level of talent) off of 10 years consistent training.
Impressive, but not unbelievable. Why accuse him of drugs?
He is bound to be accused of using drugs because he is Spanish and fast. Not quite World Class though.
Not intending to be a jerk, but is 27:27 (admittingly a very fast time) considered elite? As crazy as it sounds to me, it's an also ran kind of time in this day and age, isn't it?
i was talking about the progression, of course some talented guys can run 27:20s without drugs but don't call someone who ran 15mins at the age of 19 talented, this guy didn't break 14min till he was 25.
Look at the times that other 13:10 and under non-africans have run in their early twens, the only other guys with similar progression who come to my mind are Alberto Garcia(EPO),Chema Martinez,Jose Rios and Fabian Roncero all spaniards...may be its not drugs but what is it that makes them progress like that must be perfect training.
Its unusual for Americans to believe because many runners are not in a position to see these kind of improvements during their late 20's. Many are burnt-out or feel the social pressures to make money after their collegiate careers. Who's kidding who, in the states if you're not a sub 13:50 guy by the time you're done your eligibility you're not in a position to make money running. And if you can't focus on running (ie. full-time athlete or part-time job) you will not see this type of improvement. Distance runners from European descent usually peak in their late 20's but this is not the mainstream train of thought in the states. NCAA IS NOT THE END ALL and many runners would see drastic improvements if they continued to train into their late 20's. Hopefully with more options for post-collegiate these days the US can produce more Juan Carlos'...
It's not about peaking late its about turning someone who ran mediocre(for international standards) in his early/mid twens to world/european class.That kind of progression to such a high level seem to have only the Spaniards, other exceptions like S.Franke were caught for drugs.
Other non-africans at that level like Mottram,Baumann,Kennedy,Carroll,Moorcroft,Bakken, even Lopes who is probably THE example for someone peaking late was already a 13:30/28:00 min guy on "minimal" training at the age of 25, but so many Spaniards come out the nowhere and "suddenly" are sub 13:15/27:30/2:08 guys.
The funny thing that it seems that only a minority of their top distance guys showed much promise as a junior-early twens.
I mean the US has many lets say under-23 year olds who can run sub 14min, shouldn't we kick their asses?
What is the difference?
His 27:27 makes him 19th performer on the 2005 list, so I'd say it is quite elite. Everyone talks like sub-27 10000m times are a dime a dozen, but only 21 different people have done it since Ondieki ran 26:58.38 in 1993. That's about 2 per year average added to the list. Panetta is 74th performer on the all-time list with 27:24.16, so I'd imagine de la Ossas is in the top 100 all-time with his 27:27.
You don't know what sort of training he was actually doing in his early to mid 20's relative to all of those guys. He may have focused on cross country and not on the track. He may also have been training very lightly compared the guys you mention. He may have just increased his training year in year out for a full 10 years and now he is running at world class level. Every runner is an individual case.
From the IAAF today... just a different train of thought in Spain.
Beijing 2008 Olympics better than London 2012
Assessing his 1500m Olympic chances, Casado believes that “had I been asked on this matter one year ago my response would have been, ‘OK, I think that Beijing Olympics comes too soon for me and I’ll probably reach my peak in London four years later,’ but after my 2005 season I firmly think that I’ll already be competitive in Beijing.”
There will be a coaching clinic this weekend in Madrid Spain, organized by the RFEA (Spanish Athletics Federation) among the speakers will be K. Boulami, Rashid Ramzi's coach who will discuss Ramzi's training methodology for this 2005 and the coach of Juan Carlos de la Ossa will be speaking about his training methods.
For all of you who never have been in Spain or never have spoken to any elite Spanish distance coach, let me tell you that they are very professionals at their job, they are very technical and have a lot of experience and knowledege. If one of our friends from Spain or Portugal are over there, could you share with us the info from that clinic?
www.rfea.es click at "XII Jornadas Técnicas ENE"
And now you bring Khalid Boulami into the discussion!
Ask him what drugs he now gives to his athletes after his brother/athlete Brahim got busted for EPO!
It helps that Spain as a central, nationalized athletics training program which aims to develop runners for long-term success. Because it is nationalized, they can focus on building a team for the olympics and World Champs, rather then the US college system, which simply doesn't have that single-minded focus. NCAA coaching is aimed at doing well at nationals (or regionals, conferences, pre-nats, depending on the program), and so it is built arond a one-year cycle of training.
Nice one Marco - v timely to point that out. P'haps also worth mentioning that Antonio Serrano, de la Ossa's coach was the first Spaniard to break 2.10 for the marathon, also coaches 1500m guy J C Higuero and from what I have read and discussed with people in Spain is seen as being a v smart guy with great integrity. The transcript of the de la Ossa item will prob be about 15 pages of v detailed stuff and as always it will be part of the full seminar publication that RFEA will publish. The key elements to de la Ossa's breakthrough in recent years are, broadly and simplistically, the usual performance factors relevant to improving endurance runners. Part of the 5k/10k performance curve in last 3-4 years has to take into a/c two extended periods of spring/summer injury which ruled out the track times that his XC results in the preceding winter would have suggested were on the cards
Hello Wowow, I'm now 29 and training full time (or nearly so) for the first time in my life, so this thread is particularly interesting to me. I ran 14:11 as a 21 year old (1997) but have only run 14:07 since then because of injuries and other priorities (school). I finally finished my undergrad in the spring and now have the opportunity to focus on running for a year. I've given myself the ultimatum of "breakthrough or bust" (meaning I'll go back to grad school if I haven't run under 13:30 by the end of the summer). This may sound like a big jump, but there have been times in training and in racing (such as cross country where times don't count for anything) that I have seen that I have the potential to do this. I have also trained with 13:10/27:30 range runners and learned about their training while at the same time learning that hard consistent work, rather than talent, is what separates their performances from mine. There is a good chance I will not break through of course. Injuries and illness can always occur no matter how much stretching, massage, and ice baths I perform, but with some luck I know I can do this. Now, de la Ossas may have cheated in some way (I have no idea and neither does anybody on this board) but he may have also had a ton of setbacks over the years. And yet (hypothetically) because of his love for running and his confidence in his ultimate potential he kept plugging away at it until, finally, his body was able to handle the training necessary to get to the next level. A decade (or more) of not giving up the dream like many others have done and he just ends up getting accused of cheating. To know that I will likely have the same accusation fielded against myself should I have the same success really pisses me off. I have stayed in this sport because I love the fact that not one of us really knows what our ultimate potential is. I have not even come close to the kind of training that I believe is possible for myself, so I know that I have run nowhere near what I am capable of. This is the same for you I am sure. So, I really believe that a breakthrough can happen anytime (within reason; before 40 years old say, though I may be proven wrong) in an runner's life if they keep searching for the right training (and health) that will allow them to do this. I would like to see you, and others on this board who love running and seeing themselves improve, keep the faith alive that, despite the existence of cheaters out there, there are runners who stick it out over the long term because they just know they haven’t yet achieved what they believe they are "naturally" capable of.
good post there JZ.
There are not many cheat's left in this sport.
De La Ossa is clean-what a tryer the guy is.
Ramzi however! i just do not know!
I understand the point but it's not just de la Ossa its about 90% of the Spaniards, do all of them just 30miles of jogging per week till they are in their mid-twens?
And jumping from 14+ to 13:10/27:27 is not just about gettin a bit more serious doing some miles more, thats a huge jump.
Two thems emerging here
1- How do the Spanish distance elite train?
2- Do they cheat?
Below, as a hopefully insightful example of 1 above, is what Fabian Roncero's coach Guillermo Ferrero presented to the RFEA seminar in 1998. Contrary to what a couple of folk have posted on other threads, Roncero hasn't failed a dope test. He's been out from the elite circuit nearly 4 years having two achilles ops, but is now healed and focusing on Euro Champs August 2006, event not yet decided.
Height - 1.71 (5,7 1/2)
Weight - 56kg/124 lbs at Rotterdam 1998
Body Fat - 9%
VO2 Max - 83
Resting pulse - 42
Maximum Heart Rate - 183
Haematocrit - 43.5%
Anaerobic threshold (AT) tested at 3.1mol/l, at 170 HR, ie c 90% of max HR - 2.58/km pace for Roncero at peak
We determine the AT at about 4 Mol/l of blood lactate, which is about quadruple the resting level. This for FR is 90% of VO2 Max, in most good marathoners the level is about 85%. In principle marathon runers can do the whole race at about that level.Tactically, and always in the context of the competiton on the day, it is very important not to exceed the AT pace. So we pace the race:-
1 st Half - 50% of total + 15/20 secs
2nd half - 50% of total - 15/20 secs
Ideally we vary the training terrain for both physical and psychologcal reasons. We combine road, country/off road and track depending on the duration and type of running to be done. Fabian, againsnt my views and because he is excessively preoccupied with splits and times, still carries out too many sessions on the track, which risks injury because of the overload and stress that ocurs on the bends.
At the top level, it is recommended that if you are running two marathons per year that after each two years you take one away from the marathon and concentrate on improving your 10k time. With money and increasing championships this trend is increasingly dificult.
As a minimum, 3 months between marathons. The major organic trauma of a marathon is mainly over after 15 days, and if there is then a gradual reintroduction to training it follows that you will lose some form. After this regeneration I usualy allocate a microcycle (9 days) to introduce some short speed work to recover the basic speed that is lost after a marathon.
An annual racing programme something like the following:-
- 5-6 XC races
- 4-6 road races of 10-21k
- 3-4 track races 5 or 10k
- 2 marathons
Total 14-18 races[If there are 2 x c 6 week periods of no racing post marathon, this equates to about 1 race every 2 1/2 weeks most of the rest of the year)]
We take special care about flexibility to avoid the tightness and cramps in the final stage of races.
For a marathoner, to improve the AT we use speeds only slightly quicker than that of the race. For a 2.07 man, 3.00/Km, we rarely use speeds quicker than 2.50/km and that is in reps of 1000m
The AT is more a metabolic indicator than a cardiac one. The Heartrate gives the coach an easy control marker but the true one is the blood lactate level. We test this by the standard measure of 5 x 2k with 45 secs rest to take a blood sample after each rep. The pace increases from 6.20 to 5.55. The AT is the level at which the lactate stabilises. We then confirm this the next day with 7200m run at AT pace (the pace of the last of the 2 k reps) - 3.2k then 4k after a full recovery, with the HR and blood lactate again recorded in his test.
We train in 9 day microcycles within which are 3 x 3 day cycles of medium- intense - easy, and an active or absolute rest, depending on the athete, each 10 days.
For a double periodised year we have:-
Base - 8 to 12 weeks
Specific - 5-8 weeks
Competitive - 6-8 weeks
Variations apply when marathons are not evenly spread over a year eg Big City race - March/April followed by Champs Race August
Rest and regeneration 15 days as said above.
Strength and Conditioning
- short hills - 30-40m
- Running technique /drills
- Multi jumps [squat thrusts , burpees, Star jumps]
A - Steady varied pace runs
- Recovery running - c6.30/6.40/m
- steady state Pace 3 - c 5.45/m, 75- 105 mins
- Steady state Pace 2 - c 5.10/m - 30-50 mins
B - Extensive resistance work
- Steady state pace 1 - c 4.40 - 4.50/m, 20-35 mins
- reps of 1000 to 4000, Recoveries between 1 and 3 mins, 6-10 x 1000m and 2-3 x 4k. Slightly quicker than steady State pace 1 above, exact speed subject to form
- progressive continuous pace, in groups of either 1-2-3km. eg, at his peak - 3km at 5m/mile, 3km at 4.32/mile. It's interesting to note how in this sort of running one can achieve a pace that it seems really hard to achieve in a rep session.
Apart from the lacate tests as above we do a test 1/2 marathon race three weeks pre-marathon, that's enough to know his state of form. What I consider to be the real key parts of the training are those in the rep sessions and the steady state pace 1 as above.
To summarise, endurance training for marathon is different from other distance races as the type of endurance is different. General training is the improvement of the heart's efficiency, specific is the threshold work, the use of oxygen and the type of energy source used. The marathoner has a double task, both to raise the AT to enable faster running while the oxygen use is in equilibrium, whilst also always trying to run the greater part of the race using glycogen rather than fatty acids.
A marathoner cannot keep increasing the speed of the interval work except in the basic and early specific training so he has to work at increasing the quantity of work and/or decreasing the recovery, or a mixed system that the Italians call 'fast recovery' eg running the recoveries at c 6min/mile. In the comp period, we increase the pace a bit (the lactate test guides this) and slightly reduce the quantity. We keep the pace not too intense to ensure the quantity is maintained and that only a short incomplete recovery is needed.
A minimal amount of anaerobic work - about 1% - is included, it has an effect against the monotony of the training. In brief, the steady state paces 2 and 3 are the keys of the Basic training, in the specific period mainly Pace 2 and Pace 1.In the comp period it's the reps and Pace 1 that become the key elements.
On the mythology of mileage, not all miles are the same. In terms of 9 day cycles[not 7, note], we range around the following:-
- Basic 140-165 miles
- specific - 175 - 200
We are not speaking here of a rigid system. In the base period, the training lacks much variety though we can substitute a race for what is deemed the most intense session. In the specific period, we do the same except for any key races. In the competitive period we don't have that approach.
He has never been to altitude, except 3 weeks in the summer prior to Carpi in 1996, when he went to Navacerrada (1800/2200m) as much to get some peace and cooler temperatures as for the altitude benefits.[Since then he has had several trips to altitude, always with close training partner Jose Rios].
Races in build up to 2.07:-
8 weeks out - Spanish Club XC - 2nd
6 weeks out - Spanish National XCChamps - 3rd
4 weeks out - 10th in World XC 12k, Marrakesh (2nd white runner)
2 weeks out - 27.14 Euro Challnge 10,000, Spanish record still standing
Marathon - 2.07.26
5 key comps in 8 weeks, without doubt, too much.
w/e 1 march
m 25k at 3.50 14k a 3.30
t 20mn w/u + 7k at 3.20 15k a 3.50
w 15k at 3.25 20mn sw/u - 8 x 1000 at 2.45 (2 min rec)
t 24k at 3.50 13k building pace + drills
f 5k w/u - 10k tempo (told to do 30.30, did 29.07!) -5k w/d
pm 14k at 3.50
s 15k at 4.00
s 5k w/u - 2 x 4000 (11.15) [3 mins] - 5k w/d
pm 11k at 3.40
w/e 8 march
m 16 k at 3.50 17k at 3.40
t 16 k at 3.40 6k w/u - 8k in 23.36, 5k w/d
w 16k at 3.50 6k w/u 4 x 1k av 2,42 + 1 x 2k in 5.23 [2 mins] - 5k w/d
t 18k at 3.20 12k at 3.50
f 16k at 3.50 12k at 3.30
s 10k at 4.10
s SPANISH XC CHAMPS - 3rd
w/e 15 March
m 15k at 3.50
t 12k at 3.30 22k at 3.30(last 3k in 9.00)
w 10k at 3.50 10k at 3.50 - 5 x 2k Av 5.40[2mins]
t 12k at 3.30 25k at 3.30
f 11k at 3.30 20mins w/u - 11k in 31.26 - w/d
s 13k at 3.50
s 21k at 3.30 7k at 3.30
w/e 22 MArch
m LACTATE TESTS - 6 x 2k [45 secs] Rep 1 6.20; Rep 6 5.55, each one 5 sec quicker pm 11k at 3.50
t lacate confirmation - 7k at lacate t'hold pm 11k at 3.50
w 12k at 3.30 23k at 3.30
t 20min w/u - 2 x 4k in 11.45 [4 mins]
s 11k at 3.50
s WORLD XC 12k MARRAKESH
m 20k at 3.30
t 16k at 3.30 - last 3k in 9.00 24k at 3.50
w 11k at 3.30 30 mins at 3.50 - 3 x 3k in 8.30 [4 mins]
t 17k at 3.30 30 mins w/u - 14k in 44.02! - w/d
f 17k at 3.30 26k at 3.30
s 15k at 4.10
s 14k at 3.30, then into 6k in 17.30, then into 2 x (300-400-500) at c 5k pace [1mins/4mins between sets]
m 17k at 3.30 7k at 3.30 then 16k at 3.05
t 17k at 3.30 21k at 3.30
w 15k at 4.00 30 mins w/u - 5 x2k Av=5.34[2 mins]
t 17k at 3.30 20k at 3.30
f 15k at 4.00
s IBERIAN 10,000m CHALLENGE - 27.14.4 Spanish record
s 21k at 3.30
m 17k at 3.30 20k at 3.30
t 12k at 4.00 20 mins w/u - 3 x 4k Av 11.36 [3 mins]
w 17k at 3.30 21k at 3.30
t 11k at 3.30 15 mins w/u - 12k at 3.05 - 20 mins w/d
f 17k at 3.30 20 mins w/u - 10k in 29.05 - 15 mins w/d
s 16k at 3.50
s 17k at 3.30 20 mins w/u - 16k at 3.05
m 17k at 3.30 20 mins w/u - 16k at 3.05
t 11k at 3.30 21k at 3.30
w 11k at 3.30 30 mins w/u - 8k in 24.20 - 20mns w/d
t 11k at 3.30 30 mins w/u - 4k in 11.40 - 20 mins w/d
f TRAVEL 11k at 3.30
s 10k at 4.00
s ROTTERDAM MARATHON 2.07.26
Comments from Roncero to questions from other coaches:-
'Leaving work was a fundamental reason for my progress. I spent 5 years working in a film business, doing 8.00 to 3pm. I did 100 mpw, twice per day. What happened? I had a haematocrit of 38% because I slept 6-7 hours. I arrived early so I could train at break time, and again in the evening, but that way you just don't absorb the training. 4 months after leaving work I was Spanish marathon champ, which says it all.'
'With 27.14 what can you do in a WC/OG? Perhaps 5th behind Gebre, Tergat and others. With 2.07 where might you come? You could win. That;s how I addressed it'[Rey, Martinez, Rios all since stated similar views].
A separate schedule of Roncero's summer prep age 21 when he was a 3k/5k type (14.11 for 5k) was also shown, far less volume, much more at 1500/3k race speed, even some reps at 800 pace, weekly total about 90kms. Plenty of technical drills which says Ferrero -' in the amount of running he does now there is just no time or energy to do these. This is why Fabian runs like the angels'.
thanx for the infos.
First he says he did 100mpw while holding a job before his breakthrough and then you post that he only did 90km per week?However, he has never come close to that 27:14 performance(two days after running 37km!) in his life, only 13:22 5k and 27:45 second fastest 10k performance(and 30s is a lot at that level).