Some bonkers times from 7th and 9th grade girls in Saint Anthony’s invite

The William Floyd freshman also ran faster than anyone in the boys freshmen race

I'm not a fan of 7th graders running HS varsity races. More often than not, especially for the girls, they just see their standing against HS competition deteriorate over their actual HS careers. Too much emphasis is placed on 7th grade girls beating high schoolers. It sets up an expectation that is inappropriate for both the athletes and their parents. I really wish this weren't allowed. I see no benefit.

Flagpole wrote:

I'm not a fan of 7th graders running HS varsity races. More often than not, especially for the girls, they just see their standing against HS competition deteriorate over their actual HS careers. Too much emphasis is placed on 7th grade girls beating high schoolers. It sets up an expectation that is inappropriate for both the athletes and their parents. I really wish this weren't allowed. I see no benefit.

I don't think there is an inherent problem with 7th graders running HS races. It really depends on how the situation is handled post race. If the parents are nonchalant and don't put the kid on a pedestal, then perhaps it is useful to try yourself against older athletes. Set the expectations low at that age and put the kid in other sports. If you treat this as an end all and be all one track then the child could suffer when those lofty expectations are not met. If your kid is trained to maintain some level of equilibrium, win or lose, then you can do anything. If not...

No parent that is for their 7th grader running in a HS race is nonchalant, and the athlete isn't experienced enough (usually the parents aren't either) to put their performance into proper perspective. I don't need a 7th grader to be involved in other sports. CC in the fall and track in the spring is enough. Spending time to have fun with friends and actually do some school work is a good idea.

So if a kid is quick enough to run varsity in his state and is winning middle school meets by 2 minutes would it not be more beneficial to have said kid move up to get racing experience even if they win or lose? some kids just deserve to run up,

DeaconBlues wrote:

Two twin 7th graders from Northport come 3rd and 17th in the varsity girls 5k, and a 9th grade girl out of William Floyd beats the next girl by 90 seconds, and the first place boy in the 1.5 mile course. This was a big invite too with 32 teams and only one heat for varsity jv and freshman races.

Saratoga has a long tradition of running 75 lb middle schoolers in xc races and local road races. Their times are impressive cause they are nothing but legs and lungs but the optics on it are soooo cringe.

Flagpole wrote:

I'm not a fan of 7th graders running HS varsity races. More often than not, especially for the girls, they just see their standing against HS competition deteriorate over their actual HS careers. Too much emphasis is placed on 7th grade girls beating high schoolers. It sets up an expectation that is inappropriate for both the athletes and their parents. I really wish this weren't allowed. I see no benefit.

INCORRECT!

Film Rep wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

I'm not a fan of 7th graders running HS varsity races. More often than not, especially for the girls, they just see their standing against HS competition deteriorate over their actual HS careers. Too much emphasis is placed on 7th grade girls beating high schoolers. It sets up an expectation that is inappropriate for both the athletes and their parents. I really wish this weren't allowed. I see no benefit.

INCORRECT!

incorrect is correct, what benefits does an 8 th grader get winning meets by 2 minutes? It’s just a training run, they would benefit more from running up and getting to actually race.

moveup wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

No parent that is for their 7th grader running in a HS race is nonchalant, and the athlete isn't experienced enough (usually the parents aren't either) to put their performance into proper perspective. I don't need a 7th grader to be involved in other sports. CC in the fall and track in the spring is enough. Spending time to have fun with friends and actually do some school work is a good idea.

So if a kid is quick enough to run varsity in his state and is winning middle school meets by 2 minutes would it not be more beneficial to have said kid move up to get racing experience even if they win or lose? some kids just deserve to run up,

No. Middle school kids should race other middle school kids. The "racing experience" is bunk. I can not tell you how many super stud middle school runners I have seen turn into either nothing or just kind of good high school runners. There are two main reasons in play when middle school kids destroy other middle school kids:

1) They are more physically mature (this usually applies to the boys).

2) They train more. Many middle school kids don't run all that much. Got a kid who actually runs 40 MPW or more, then they will likely do much better than their middle school counterparts.

What happens to these middle school stud runners is usually one of the following:

1) They are swallowed up by others who catch up to them physically in high school.

2) They are swallowed up by others who catch up to them because they now run more as most high school kids will.

3) They are swallowed up because their maturity (usually this applies to girls, but I have seen it with boys too who got way too muscular) ends up being a detriment to being a good distance runner.

4) They are swallowed up because they were a big fish in a small pond, and now in high school, there are many more athletes to compete against...because way more athletes participate once they are in high school.

In all of my years with two kids watching middle school, then high school, then college running, I have seen only ONE runner ever who was a super stud in middle school who then was that in high school (and then he also has become that in college), and that is Lucas Bons of BYU. All of the other super studs in high school and beyond were not that in middle school or didn't even run in middle school.

moveup wrote:

Film Rep wrote:

INCORRECT!

incorrect is correct, what benefits does an 8 th grader get winning meets by 2 minutes? It’s just a training run, they would benefit more from running up and getting to actually race.

1) First of all, I DID say 7th graders, but I DO also agree that 8th graders need to stay in their lane.

2) The benefit of NOT running in a high school meet is that expectations are tamped down for both the kid and the parents. "Little Johnny is so good he races the high schoolers!" Big freakin' deal. The kid has 4 years to race in high school. If he is so good, he can start kicking butt and taking names as a Freshman.

The 90’s are calling they want their thinking back, That thinking is a huge reason the us can’t do crap in distance running. oh make lil johnny wait to bloom to his senior year of high school anything sooner is just wrong. I know it’s rare to see a younger runner eat, sleep and breath running on their own without being pushed but there is a handful right now that do and it’s not because they are more mature or developed, or that they are running huge miles at least not one i’m talking about, guess if 28 to 30 miles is huge I stand corrected. There’s quite a few kids that i’ve been watching the last 3 to 4 years that are freshman this year running very well, guess maybe next year is there year to fizzle out according to the letsnotrun message board

Flagpole wrote:

moveup wrote:

incorrect is correct, what benefits does an 8 th grader get winning meets by 2 minutes? It’s just a training run, they would benefit more from running up and getting to actually race.

1) First of all, I DID say 7th graders, but I DO also agree that 8th graders need to stay in their lane.

2) The benefit of NOT running in a high school meet is that expectations are tamped down for both the kid and the parents. "Little Johnny is so good he races the high schoolers!" Big freakin' deal. The kid has 4 years to race in high school. If he is so good, he can start kicking butt and taking names as a Freshman.

Do you feel the same about other sport participants? Should dominant tennis players, basketball players etc...compete against mediocre kids their own age or move up and compete against better older athletes?

"bonkers times" without the times.

coach wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

1) First of all, I DID say 7th graders, but I DO also agree that 8th graders need to stay in their lane.

2) The benefit of NOT running in a high school meet is that expectations are tamped down for both the kid and the parents. "Little Johnny is so good he races the high schoolers!" Big freakin' deal. The kid has 4 years to race in high school. If he is so good, he can start kicking butt and taking names as a Freshman.

Do you feel the same about other sport participants? Should dominant tennis players, basketball players etc...compete against mediocre kids their own age or move up and compete against better older athletes?

I do not have the same experience and knowledge of other sport participants that I do of distance running participants, so I have no answer for you there. My correct view has nothing to do with keeping younger kids down. It has to do with seeing what happens to the VAST MAJORITY of distance running middle school kids who are dominant in middle school and then what the progress beyond that is. I have seen such demise that I just do not take seriously ANY kid runner who is doing well before high school. That's just the way it typically goes. I even saw one kid (a boy) who was absolutely destroying other middle schoolers as an 8th grader, and by the time he was a sophomore, he wasn't even in the top 14 on his own team. He was one that was just much more mature than the middle school kids he competed against, and when the others caught up and he had more competition and he didn't improve, it was all over.

I could list at least 20 examples of boys and girls who were super stars in middle school here in Ohio, that I witnessed personally just when watching my own two kids run, who turned into either nothing special or just kind of good in high school. I won't name names in that way of course, because I am a good person. It is just astonishing how being good at distance running in middle school really means absolutely nothing more than you were good at distance running in middle school.

It's just setting up the kid and the parents (but mostly I care about the kid) for serious failure and everything that goes along with that to proclaim that they are so good (and that's what is being said when a 7th grader is allowed to race against high schoolers) that they need to race against older competition.

Again, I see no benefit at all.

In 2002 Argyle won the NYSPHSAA Class D Championship with 4 7th graders on the same course. 2 were faster than the 1st twin and all 4 were faster than the 2nd twin.

https://archive.dyestat.com/3state/NY/2xc/nysphsaa-statemeet/class-d.htm

https://ny.milesplit.com/meets/439248-st-anthonys-invitational-2021/results#.YVpje31OmUk

Nope. The 90s isn't calling. This is not any kind of thinking that is holding US kids back. Also, you mentioned kids who are running well as FRESHMEN. Were they DOMINANT in middle school? I was talking about middle school kids, and specifically 7th graders. A kid who is doing well as a Freshman against high school competition has a better chance of continuing that than a kid in middle school who is doing well against middle school competition.

Also, if you want to continue this discussion with me, and you want to show me that I'm wrong, I'll need to know what times they ran in middle school, and what you consider "running very well" now as freshman. Sometimes people from Podunk states don't understand what "running very well" as a freshman means. Ohio is one of the best distance running states, so my definition of what "running very well" might very well be different than yours. Get back to me if you want. I'll let you know what the reality is.

This is a horrible take. 7th graders shouldn’t compete in varsity races they might win because when they get older they might run slower?

That pretty much applies to many 9th and 10th graders as well. That is just over protective participate trophy thinking.

I'm not sure how many of you coach young athletes. I will give you my opinion for what it is worth.

First of all I ran in middle school, high school and College in the states. I coach junior athletes here in Australia and have for the past 15 years.

I coach a 8th grade female who ran 4:37 and 10:06 for 1500/3k which won her national medals. In our city if she only raced females that were her age the margin of her winning races would be huge. Luckily she can enter races with other females based on her pr's this has allowed her to make steady progression. I don't have a problem with her racing up against older athletes. It is the responsability of the coach to keep things in perspective. She trains with my older females and has a good balanced outlook to the sport. She runs 4-5 ,days a week and only 2 training sessions with me. I monitor her training through Strava and yea she might be something in the future. I had a similar male that followed same path and he is running for Princeton. He came to me at the age of 10. If they have a good coach there shouldn't be a problem.

Good luck to them and to their coach...Be patient

i consider running sub 16 as a freshman well around here, also consider 10:30 to 11:30 running well for an 8th grade 2 mile. On the track i would consider sub 4:50 in 1600 running well but not able to win a race around here and 9:30 or better good for the 3000 meter but still not a winning time. but of course i’m sure i’m way off. with proper coaching a 8th grader running those time should continue to improve.