Is XC too nice for its own good?

So Sean Brosnan

I was slow and didn't know how to push in Middle School, it's funny that the one thing that changed me was freshman football.

I learned work ethic, discipline, how to be athletic, lifting, and that I could actually run fast and beat other kids in workouts.

Soon enough I went all in track by the end of freshman year, I had a career riddled with injuries and cut in the middle by COVID, but I'm thankful for the lessons track taught me, and the lessons football taught me beforehand.

It's middle school, man. The kids just showing up is a good thing. I wouldn't have had any motivation to be a distance runner when I was 12 or 13, but I was a fanatic in HS

"coaches I've known have been willing to take on anyone with the hope that they'll either have the talent, the drive or a good combination of both to earn some points for the team. "

Sure, some coaches may be like that but that's not why I coach. I take on anyone not because they may score points for the team, but because they want to run and its my job to help them. This isn't pro, this isn't college. It's MS/HS. Winning is nice, but it's far from the only value to competing in this sport.

In most scholastic sports, if you're not good enough you get cut from the team or, at best, you ride the bench with limited playing time. I think that's a good motivator and I think it would work for XC too. You can always let kids practice with the team, but set a minimum standard for being able to race or at least travel with the team for races

Kids may not get cut but there's no lack of motivation. In our area the dual meets are not competitive so these become the goal for the slower kids. Finish the race, beat some kids or may be crack the top 7. Their season is defined by dual meets. Then there are the really good kids where dual meets are just a workout. For them their season is defined by the invitational meets with dozens of schools. Then there are the elite kids where the invites are just tune-ups for the regional, state and national meets.

So for a kid who is motivated they can work there way through all of those levels.

Most of the best teams in my area have some really slow kids out there, at the high school level.

In fact, this one coach, who has the fastest individual runner in the state, stayed behind at the 1 mile mark to wait for and cheer for a girl that was several minutes slower than any other girl. His top runner came in at about 5 minutes, his last girl was over 13 minutes. He cheered for her more than any other kid. To be clear he cheered jubilantly for all of them, but there was something extra for that last girl.

That was the moment I developed a ton of respect for the guy, it's no wonder he has such a successful program that qualifies for state as a team regularly and has produced multiple individual state champs.

Haha

You do realize that many schools have a hard enough time fielding five to score. XC is mostly for kids that don’t get to play in those other sports but want to do something active. Anyways do middle schoolers really need to be training seriously year round. Just let them be kids. In a lot of cases they’re doing XC to get in shape for wrestling or basketball.

Anyways don’t be a helicopter parent. We have too many of them nowadays. Let kids be kids.

It's middle school. In most middle school activities, you are better than your peers if you just participate.

If he keeps improving, he will eventually get to a level where you will not have this problem. Let's say he ends up at your standard D-I program, where one off race means your season on the traveling squad is done, and the women's team are all walking skeletons.

In my years of coaching, I have seen several "no talents" in middle school become title contenders in high school because they worked hard and stayed with it.

On day one, I tell the kids that I coach that this is the one sport where consistency, hard work, and perseverance will actually pay dividends because EVERYONE can improve. It is not dependent on hand/eye coordination and physical size. Your success is not determined by a referee's call or by a teammate's ability to run a play, make a pass, or play defense. The best runners are this planet are simple farmers and herders from impoverished parts of the world so being from a wealthy family or the good part of town doesn't mean squat. Embrace the challenge, have a good attitude, and do the work.

no... please... dont "Letsrun" cross country and make it an unwelcoming toxic zone that discourages participation. talk about shooting yourself in the foot for no good reason. the benefits for young people being welcomed into a running community and being introduced to an active lifestyle where they feel they belong go FAR beyond one day becoming a distance running star or even scoring for the team. thats one of the lesser outcomes in my opinion.

Hurno wrote:

Most of the best teams in my area have some really slow kids out there, at the high school level.

In fact, this one coach, who has the fastest individual runner in the state, stayed behind at the 1 mile mark to wait for and cheer for a girl that was several minutes slower than any other girl. His top runner came in at about 5 minutes, his last girl was over 13 minutes. He cheered for her more than any other kid. To be clear he cheered jubilantly for all of them, but there was something extra for that last girl.

god bless that coach. he gets it.

I understand what you are saying but I think you have this one wrong. I’m not trying to insult, but to honestly debate.

The nature of XC lends itself to mass participation. You have physical and logistical limitations in other sports because you don’t have 20 basketball courts or 15 football fields or equipment for that many football players. Incrementally it’s basically nothing to add runners. So why not? Those kids at the bottom would be doing nothing if they were not running XC. Having those kids out there (in terms of priorities for a public school) is arguably just as important as having the top seven out there. That’s the mission! Frankly, you could be saving lives out there. Putting those kids on a path of health and fitness. Not to mention the joy of running and competing for your school. Belonging on a team. It’s beyond awesome what those kids get.

As for competitiveness. It’s not worse for the top guys. The bigger the group the more the pressure coming from the bottom. Somebody in that group below is going to have talent.

As for incentive to be better. Again, I go back to logistics. You can’t take a ton of people on out of state big races. So that can be a motivating factor. I also just think being out there and seeing the guys at the top pushing sets the example. If you aren’t on the team you don’t see them. You are not positively impacted by them. You’re not even running.

Lastly, I’ve been to a lot of meets and I’ve seen plenty of kids at the very back of races giving everything they have. Sure, they are slow as hell, but that’s not the point. And if they keep putting in that effort they won’t always be so slow. Frankly, I’m more inspired by some of those back of the pack kids busting a gut. No glory. No ribbons. Just grinding it out. That’s pure sport right there.

Speaking from experience at my highschool.

XC was the bottom of the barrel in terms of where athletic ability drifted to.

XC was the only sports team that allowed special needs kids to participate.

Just speaking from what I’ve seen.

As a hs coach, I don't agree with xc becoming a 'try out / cut sport' as their is far greater value to every kid being a prt of the team / program and not focusing on the race results. However, with this being said, I'd love to have an assistant coach or a JV coach to work with the newbies and those not quite in the Varsity top 10. It's very challenging to conduct workouts aside from closed loop / soccer field / open field grass areas when you're first the range in 5k race performances is 18 min to 37 min. Road runs are stop and wait, stop and wait, kids not knowing where they are, etc. Safety aside, having another coach to focus their attention on the younger, developing ,less talented to ensure these kids feels 100% included can be very, very helpful.

chuck bass wrote:

Speaking from experience at my highschool.

XC was the bottom of the barrel in terms of where athletic ability drifted to.

XC was the only sports team that allowed special needs kids to participate.

Just speaking from what I’ve seen.

The football team had their share of “special needs” guys.

I have always been for cuts for a varsity team. The individuals that just want to be there to hangout, but are unwilling to do the work are a drag on the team, and a discredit to the sport. In HS we cut for the tournament, and we always became better and closer team.

Now I don't think you have to fully cut, a recreational training group is a great option. Where they would go to local road races or JV meets, share practice time, but have different training and goals. Then if someone catches the interest, they could move up to the competitive team.

Look at a high school football team. They have about 50 players. That’s just as many if not more than Most XC teams. Am I wrong?

A lot of those football players basically never play. They guys who never play are typically very un athletic. But they like being in the team. XC is no different. The cool thing actually is that the very worst guys still get to play. They play more than the top guys, actually. (I say that in jest, but technically it’s true)

Trucker Hat wrote:

Haha

You do realize that many schools have a hard enough time fielding five to score. XC is mostly for kids that don’t get to play in those other sports but want to do something active. Anyways do middle schoolers really need to be training seriously year round. Just let them be kids. In a lot of cases they’re doing XC to get in shape for wrestling or basketball.

Anyways don’t be a helicopter parent. We have too many of them nowadays. Let kids be kids.

XC is not just for kids that can't play other sports. A talented skinny distance runner can be a great athlete, but he wouldn't have the upper body strength to compete in other sports. What you're saying is no different than opining that a kid is a lineman on the football because he sucks at distance running. HS athletes are generally going to participate in the sport where they have the most natural ability.

Keep them on the team but they don't get to race.

It's insulting to the people that are putting on the event to show up with some kid that is going to walk 2/3 of the race, meanwhile the other races can not start, results have to wait to be tabulated, course closed, packed up etc..

It's 3M, if you are out there 30+ minutes you need to train more and race less.

NotPC wrote:

Keep them on the team but they don't get to race.

It's insulting to the people that are putting on the event to show up with some kid that is going to walk 2/3 of the race, meanwhile the other races can not start, results have to wait to be tabulated, course closed, packed up etc..

It's 3M, if you are out there 30+ minutes you need to train more and race less.

That's the entire purpose of the open and JV races. For everyone! For sure they should not be running varsity races. And they're not, at least where I live. The set up is literally perfect as is.

NotPC wrote:

Keep them on the team but they don't get to race.

It's insulting to the people that are putting on the event to show up with some kid that is going to walk 2/3 of the race, meanwhile the other races can not start, results have to wait to be tabulated, course closed, packed up etc..

It's 3M, if you are out there 30+ minutes you need to train more and race less.

The back of the pack varsity races (depending on which high schools are racing) are usually 19 to 21 minutes at most in 5k. Often in the 18s. Nobody is running 30 in the varsity races where I live.

Just Some Doped Up Real Estate Broker wrote:

In my years of coaching, I have seen several "no talents" in middle school become title contenders in high school because they worked hard and stayed with it.

On day one, I tell the kids that I coach that this is the one sport where consistency, hard work, and perseverance will actually pay dividends because EVERYONE can improve. It is not dependent on hand/eye coordination and physical size. Your success is not determined by a referee's call or by a teammate's ability to run a play, make a pass, or play defense. The best runners are this planet are simple farmers and herders from impoverished parts of the world so being from a wealthy family or the good part of town doesn't mean squat. Embrace the challenge, have a good attitude, and do the work.

I don't know what you mean by "no talents" but distance running is not the one sport in the world where natural ability is irrelevant. I can look at a kid's stride and have a pretty good idea of his upside. A herd of distance runners from the local HS past by me one time and one runner stood out. I later learned he ran 9:08 and no other runner broke 10:00. You're a coach and you can't recognize talent for distance running?

Runners don't become title contenders because they stayed with it. We didn't have middle school sports and all of the top guys in my section were very good as freshman.

Distance running is a conditioning sport and training is required, but the best runners are always going to be the ones with the most natural talent.