Is Marathon Pace actually useful in training?

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

aaahno wrote:

Does Jakob really only do 75min long runs? I find that amazing if true.

I heard father Gjert confirm their long run was 20k, recently. The pace is a secret, but probably not slower than 75min

For sure he runs longer than 1:15h. They do not give away everything.

If i would be a professional, i would hide my quality work and bring the competition in the wrong direction :)

Every good company keeps there know-how secret, to stay on the market and to protect there business.

lexel wrote:

I am almost 50yo, runs since short over 1 year and my long run is around 20k and i can train the next day, absolutely no problem.

So stepwise progressing up to 32k (20 miles) seems to me not so difficult and far from impossible.

But i don't care about marathon :)

I'm 51, 16 weeks into a marathon training cycle. I have little doubt I could go out right now and complete that workout even after running (very easy) this morning. It's not a question of could I, but should I.

Marathon pace has a great place with your regular training paces.

Easy

Marathon

Tempo

XC/10k

5k/3k

1500

800

Go

If you go out for a long run, you can start easy for the first half then build to Marathon Pace your second half. You’ll feel strong and full of running.

These types of runs can be great for younger runners and those who have never run a marathon. It whets the palate and stimulates the imagination. You will visualize running down the road leading a pack with Kipchoge, Bekele, Geb, Meb, Rupp, Farrah, Salazar, Khannochi, Hall, and co.

August West wrote:

lexel wrote:

I am almost 50yo, runs since short over 1 year and my long run is around 20k and i can train the next day, absolutely no problem.

So stepwise progressing up to 32k (20 miles) seems to me not so difficult and far from impossible.

But i don't care about marathon :)

I'm 51, 16 weeks into a marathon training cycle. I have little doubt I could go out right now and complete that workout even after running (very easy) this morning. It's not a question of could I, but should I.

Thinking in duration time is better than distance here.

2h for the long run is enough for me. 1h30h is too short for me.

If i would train for a marathon 2h30 would be possibly my maximum, but it also depends on performance/fitness.

Really enjoy Sweat Elite content lately.

Some great sessions at MP:

16 miles at MP about 3 weeks out

https://youtu.be/yVpS8UtcpCw

4×3 miles/1 mile float 7 weeks out

https://youtu.be/x7ck_ZUjrMo

Ummm...Actually_itz_THON_PACE wrote:

Marathon pace has a great place with your regular training paces.

Easy

Marathon

Tempo

XC/10k

5k/3k

1500

800

Go

If you go out for a long run, you can start easy for the first half then build to Marathon Pace your second half. You’ll feel strong and full of running.

These types of runs can be great for younger runners and those who have never run a marathon. It whets the palate and stimulates the imagination. You will visualize running down the road leading a pack with Kipchoge, Bekele, Geb, Meb, Rupp, Farrah, Salazar, Khannochi, Hall, and co.

But should you outkick them all at the end of the run or save it for later? After all, it's only a training run.

These are at marathon effort. For those of us training at sea level - is that the same as marathon pace at elevation?

lexel wrote:

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

I heard father Gjert confirm their long run was 20k, recently. The pace is a secret, but probably not slower than 75min

For sure he runs longer than 1:15h. .

No, he doesn´t. A double threshold day consists of a very high total volume of running. He is doing two of those every week (plus a day of hill reps), so he doesn´t need to tire himself out with a long run. He is already getting enough endurance training.

Got to be a little more nuance. As we should look at science for endurance sports, but when you go too far into it and go into training with this "letter of the law" attitude. We forget training/coaching is part art and science. So we have to have more of a "spirit of the law" attitude. So is marathon pace useful? Yes. If you have a athlete coming off a break or a injury and it has been a while since they've done a workout, it good building block to throw in 2-3 miles at the end of a easy run at "marathon pace" (or whatever terminology you'd like to use). Or whatever sensible workout you can think of. But to slowly introduce them back to running faster, even if it is at "marathon pace" is a good spot to build from. Builds up confidence and prepares them for the faster run to come. As far as doing long runs at marathon pace for marathoners they should at least do a few ten milers at that effort to get the rythm down and psychological aspects.

well,, wrote:

lexel wrote:

For sure he runs longer than 1:15h. .

No, he doesn´t. A double threshold day consists of a very high total volume of running. He is doing two of those every week (plus a day of hill reps), so he doesn´t need to tire himself out with a long run. He is already getting enough endurance training.

Listening to a Norwegian running podcast talking to a professor of physiology he mentioned that the long run effect can of course also be obtained through a long training time for the workouts. What if you do your 30-40min of rep work, you have already been warming up for 20min and then if it fits your training plan, why not run after for 30min. The long run effect is nothing more than running steady with more fatigued legs and it won't see a difference between a long run or extra running after the workout. I never thought about this, but this might be a perfect way, if it fits the weekly plan and recovery plan, to get the long run effect.

well,, wrote:

No, he doesn´t. A double threshold day consists of a very high total volume of running. He is doing two of those every week (plus a day of hill reps), so he doesn´t need to tire himself out with a long run. He is already getting enough endurance training.

That argument sounds good, however i believe that a continuos run of 2h, provides a different training adaptation as 2 times 1h. E.g. the energy storage system in the muscle, the capillarisation and other adaptations.

But maybe skipping the long run is better for Jakob, he gets less tired and can do more speed work.

Matt Fitzgerald figured out a while back that few people actually run an entire marathon at a specific marathon pace. Most vary their pace throughout the race by feel according to terrain, conditions, energy levels, wind, the need to surge and pass people, hang back and sit with a pack, etc.

A better approach if you're going to practice "marathon pace" might be to find and work on marathon intensity or effort. What pace that ends up being will vary constantly depending on all the factors I mentioned and more.

That said, if you have a goal pace in mind, your best time to practice it at all is during your taper. Otherwise, other faster and more intense paces and focusing more on the desired intensity and effort will do a better job preparing you for that race.

There's no such thing as easily defined "marathon effort".

Are you starting your marathon at "marathon effort"? (RPE 3-4)

Are you finishing your marathon at "marathon effort"? (RPE 9-10)

If you define marathon effort as effort you USUALLY run your average goal marathon pace during regular training, untapered, in the middle of the regular length run, then perhaps it can be useful, but that's not really a very specific definition.

I feel that heart rate helps here, but again with some caveats:

- temps not too high

- glycogen stores not depleted

- you have to correct for race day adrenaline and for cardiac drift.

If all these are taken into account, I know what heart rate I can sustain in a marathon within 2-3 beats. For me that would be 151-153bpm after initial warm-up. What kind of pace that would be on any given day I have no idea, but if I'm fresh and well tapered, I can run a marathon averaging that pace.

for most people, MP falls into their easy range. for elites its probably sub threshold/tempo. for sub elites/advanced runners its faster than easy and a little slow for efficient tempo work, which is probably the least beneficial range to be in, but surely there are some physiological benefits as well as mental ones.

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

In general there is NO single optimal training pace. There are a spectre of paces/intensities that give somewhat different combos of adaptations. Aerobic qualities are trained at almost all paces. So moderate running is different than easy paced, but still highly aerobic. If you want a lot of milage, running too much moderate will not work since the load is high and in that case I would maybe go to a more polarized method of easy+faster. If the milage is lower, I would run the slower milage as fast as I can and still recover and be fresh for the workouts (but I would also use a pure recovery pace sometimes as well)

this part is difficult for a lot of people to understand, but makes perfect sense imo. if you are running 100+ MPW then your aerobic/easy days should be as slow as they need to be. If you are running 40 MPW then similarly you should run those days on feel and not put a limit on yourself if recovery has proven to be adequate. the thought that all aerobic work is the same is wishful thinking imo. surely 100 miles with 80% at 65-70% of HR is better than 40 MPW at any intensity, but to make a blanket statement that 9 minute miles are just as beneficial as 8 minute miles isnt necessarily true. need to have the full picture.

"Faster, sustained running at 80 to 85 percent and mile repeats are good methods to increase lactate tolerance. Oglesby recommends tempo runs of 10 to 12 miles at 15 to 30 seconds per mile faster than goal marathon race pace. An added benefit of these tempo runs is that the marathon pace feels easier and more manageable. "

Link:

http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm

Is there an absolute need for MP in training? Very simple answer ; NO ! The only time you need to run at MP is in the marathon race itself. I have so far coached 2:07 -2:10 marathons without any MP .

Run6556 wrote:

"Faster, sustained running at 80 to 85 percent and mile repeats are good methods to increase lactate tolerance. Oglesby recommends tempo runs of 10 to 12 miles at 15 to 30 seconds per mile faster than goal marathon race pace. An added benefit of these tempo runs is that the marathon pace feels easier and more manageable. "

Link:

http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm

Didn’t read the article but that would be a killer workout, pretty much doing a HM with 12 miles at 30 seconds under MP. Couldn’t see doing that more than once a block.

thanks again for the update wrote:

Run6556 wrote:

"Faster, sustained running at 80 to 85 percent and mile repeats are good methods to increase lactate tolerance. Oglesby recommends tempo runs of 10 to 12 miles at 15 to 30 seconds per mile faster than goal marathon race pace. An added benefit of these tempo runs is that the marathon pace feels easier and more manageable. "

Link:

http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/MandBFuelOnFat.cfm

Didn’t read the article but that would be a killer workout, pretty much doing a HM with 12 miles at 30 seconds under MP. Couldn’t see doing that more than once a block.

That's what I thought, too. For a 3-hour GMP marathoner, that's a "tempo" run of somewhere between 10 miles at 6:37 pace (just a step below race effort) to 12 miles at 6:22 pace (significantly harder than race effort, equivalent to a 2:55 marathon).

Yeah, I think I'll save myself the time and skip reading the article.