Is Marathon Pace actually useful in training?

MP is useless wrote:

Benji Durden never ran MP in training.

You're telling sub 3/4 hours marathoners to run MP because of what?

Any science or evidence that MP runs are more beneficial than any other types?

No.

For the vast majority of runners MP pace is something that you want to avoid.

Plus how do you know what MP pace you train for?

MP is basically "subthreshold" or "high-aerobic steady" or whatever else you want to call it. A reasonably hard effort for 1 hour to 1.5 hours.

So would 1 hour of subthreshold be more beneficial than 1 hour of easy (within a longer effort)? Are you really asking that? Lydiard used this pace in his plans extensively...nearly every elite seems to use it now.

"The vast majority of runners should avoid the specific pace they want to run in the race"....that's an interesting take.

What pace to use? Again, this is a subthreshold pace, so it should be determined from current fitness, not by trying to achieve an arbitrary marathon finish cutoff. If you can run a threshold/tempo, you can run subthreshold/MP.

800 dude wrote:

If you CAN'T do 20 miles at MP in a non race environment, then you will never do 26.2 in a race. Whether 20 at MP is a wise workout is another question. I used to do it (and my MP is actually faster than Daniels' chart indicates), and it was fine. Now I go 8-12 seconds/mile slower than MP for the first ten, and MP for the second ten, which feels a little safer.

Interesting discussion on MP...lots of schools of thought - seems like whatever works for the individual, just keep replicating each cycle and hopefully you get a bit faster!

For example....I can't imagine a 10/10 run like you describe, I would be shot for a long time, but I did a 10/10 run with the first 10 @ 1.5 min slower / mi than MP and ended up hitting my MP-target on race day just fine.

Agree. From my own experience, runs of 10 miles or so at MP are necessary to be physiologically ready to run a marathon. I'm a distance runner who is more 5k oriented and underperformed at marathons until I added MP workouts. Otherwise...cramps, legs seizing up, stiffness, and general exhaustion would hit by mile 20. I think this is an area where Daniels got it wrong.

no MP for me wrote:

I don’t do any running at MP.

I do my long runs as a fast finish at 1/2 marathon pace or slightly faster. Typical long run would be 20 miles with the first 14 at an easy pace and the last 6 at 1/2 marathon pace. My other workout day would be at tempo pace.

I’ve never had any trouble running at MP on race day.

Is this workout physically possible? I strongly doubt it. Even if it is, there's no way it's a good idea. It would definitely be all-out race effort and leave you absolutely exhausted in need of a lengthy recovery.

British Guy wrote:

no MP for me wrote:

I don’t do any running at MP.

I do my long runs as a fast finish at 1/2 marathon pace or slightly faster. Typical long run would be 20 miles with the first 14 at an easy pace and the last 6 at 1/2 marathon pace. My other workout day would be at tempo pace.

I’ve never had any trouble running at MP on race day.

Is this workout physically possible? I strongly doubt it. Even if it is, there's no way it's a good idea. It would definitely be all-out race effort and leave you absolutely exhausted in need of a lengthy recovery.

Not that I'd do this workout, but this doesn't really sound that difficult if the first 14 miles are *actually easy*

British Guy wrote:

no MP for me wrote:

I don’t do any running at MP.

I do my long runs as a fast finish at 1/2 marathon pace or slightly faster. Typical long run would be 20 miles with the first 14 at an easy pace and the last 6 at 1/2 marathon pace. My other workout day would be at tempo pace.

I’ve never had any trouble running at MP on race day.

Is this workout physically possible? I strongly doubt it. Even if it is, there's no way it's a good idea. It would definitely be all-out race effort and leave you absolutely exhausted in need of a lengthy recovery.

This is something I'd do (have done) as a prelude to harder 20-milers where the whole thing is closer to MP. No issues banging out a 10/7 double the next day or hitting the track two days later. It's not easy, but it's not something I'd circle on my calendar as a big one either.

runnerchef wrote:

Interesting discussion on MP...lots of schools of thought - seems like whatever works for the individual, just keep replicating each cycle and hopefully you get a bit faster!

For example....I can't imagine a 10/10 run like you describe, I would be shot for a long time, but I did a 10/10 run with the first 10 @ 1.5 min slower / mi than MP and ended up hitting my MP-target on race day just fine.

Trial and error for sure. I'm also a proponent of increasing training load (whether in volume or intensity) only when you stop seeing improvement and only incrementally. With these really big long-run workouts, the two most important questions are training background and muscle fiber distribution. More mileage (in the cycle, and in your lifetime) and more slow twitch will both favor harder long runs. Lower mileage and faster twitch runners are more likely to fry themselves doing 20 at MP.

I think the workout you describe is fine. It's probably the minimum I'd prescribe for a serious marathoner as a peak workout, but it's in the ballpark, and the most important thing is that you know it's worked for you.

Running economy is specific to the pace used in training. You become more efficient at running at a certain pace by running at that pace.

Want to be more efficient at marathon pace? Put in miles at marathon pace.

Alan

Many competitive marathon runners see marathon pace miles as the holy grail of training, but I disagree. You're not running at lactate threshold and you're running too fast to train your body to use fat for fuel. More important are mile repeats (I've done up to 8 x mile with 2:00 recovery), and long runs that have half marathon/threshold effort within them. VO2 max runs have more of a physiological too.

It's a nice mental boost to knock out a bunch of MP miles, but it's not really a good use of training miles. In my opinion.

highhoppingworm wrote:

I think there is a big difference between Daniels M pace converted from a, for example, 5k based VDOT vs. your actual marathon pace.

My “M” pace is squarely in the sub threshold category and running 8-10 miles at that pace frequently seems to have huge benefits for me. These types of long sub-LT tempos seem pretty common place in most modern training plans. Daniels also includes a bi-weekly 10 @ M pace in his 5k plan which is a change from previous editions.

Well said. I consider 1 hour runs where the pace is slightly uncomfortable to be a cornerstone of training all year, but especially in base phase. For me, it is probably 20+ sec slower than LT pace for 1 hour. Daniels has a conversion for longer than 20min LT runs. Until I can do a solid 1 hour without fading, I don't see the point in hitting the track for intervals. I'm a 1500-5K guy.

snowdays wrote:

British Guy wrote:

Is this workout physically possible? I strongly doubt it. Even if it is, there's no way it's a good idea. It would definitely be all-out race effort and leave you absolutely exhausted in need of a lengthy recovery.

Not that I'd do this workout, but this doesn't really sound that difficult if the first 14 miles are *actually easy*

Does to me, don’t know about you but 14 miles even at ‘easy pace’ still feels tough by the end, then do 6 at HMP which on its own is pretty hard, 20 in total, that’s a hard days training and would eat into subsequent days runs.

I agree. No way am I hitting HMP for 6 miles after grinding out 14 miles. I could probably do 3-4 miles and I have done 5 mile progressions from MP+15 seconds down to HMP for the last mile but I'm praying for the end while running that last mile

["Does to me, don’t know about you but 14 miles even at ‘easy pace’ still feels tough by the end, then do 6 at HMP which on its own is pretty hard, 20 in total, that’s a hard days training and would eat into subsequent days runs.[/quote]"

Those last words seem to confuse the objective which is to race a marathon at optimum marathon pace rather than push harder in 'subsequent days runs'. Selectively these big long runs where combo of pace and distance is demanding and likely means that the next 3-4 days are spent in recovery running rebuilding to next hard effort are there to optimise the marathon race, and the subsequent easier days aren't a 'problem', they facilitate the end result.

fwiw as a long ago serial 2.30/2.35-odd runner I almost never did any structured MP, just lots of miles including range of faster 3k/5k/10k/AT) and slower stuff. I reckon this gap maybe cost me c 4 mins in my PB, no science to support that. Less than 2%, more than zero. Hardly a step change but a 'nice to have'.

I now coach many quicker people and I don't see how you can expect to really master the 6 final miles of the 26.2 without something that starts to train your body, and mind, and the link between the two, on what is going to happen with your energy consumption (carbs/fat allocation ) at that point. Too fast/too long and you break down and you get injured or leave your race in training. the classic 20m at MP is borderline on this imo - i reckon it as about 3 to 3.5mins slower than a 20 mile race, all things being equal- the runner has to be astute to this distinction. too slow/too short and you are undercooked - not by much admittedly. Some of the posts with their binary do you/don't you stance are just weak - it's obviously a nuanced blend as several have pointed out.

Yes of course it's useful if you're training for a marathon. These boards are so skewed toward physiology. It's a huge pitfall in thinking here. MP is far more about STRENGTH...meaning musculoskeletal adaptation. MP gives you volume and intensity that you can't get doing anything else. I use it in conjunction with a variety of other paces in structured training schedules. If you don't do MP you won't get the volume of intensity you need to excel at the marathon.

think about how much has been written lately about 'running by feel' and how important it is

for most of us recreational runners, training at or close to goal MP, if the goal is reasonable and accurate, is very important if not essential

if you don't practice MP, the chances of going out way too fast in the early miles of your marathon go way up

Not a fan of MP wrote:

Many competitive marathon runners see marathon pace miles as the holy grail of training, but I disagree. You're not running at lactate threshold and you're running too fast to train your body to use fat for fuel. More important are mile repeats (I've done up to 8 x mile with 2:00 recovery), and long runs that have half marathon/threshold effort within them. VO2 max runs have more of a physiological too.

It's a nice mental boost to knock out a bunch of MP miles, but it's not really a good use of training miles. In my opinion.

+1

Totally agree with you . Sounds like I ascribe to the same training regimen that you do.

thereal26-timer wrote:

think about how much has been written lately about 'running by feel' and how important it is

for most of us recreational runners, training at or close to goal MP, if the goal is reasonable and accurate, is very important if not essential

if you don't practice MP, the chances of going out way too fast in the early miles of your marathon go way up

There's a lot better arguments for running at MP than this. Just learn how to pace properly, its not rocket surgery.

Marathon pace is only marathon pace on fresh legs, carb loaded, racing shoes, a flat road, with frequent hydration and refueling.

Marathon pace is almost threshold pace for experienced runners.

Physiologically, if you try to run marathon pace on tired legs, on dirt trails, on training shoes, or at anything but perfect conditions, you are probably pushing too hard and going into a half marathon or threshold effort.

I agree most aerobic adaptations can be obtained from low aerobic paces, at mitocondrial and enzymatic level. But marathon pace implies different demands from breathing muscles, forces a different stride and higher cadence, and stresses the anaerobic and lacting buffering system much more than just aerobic running.

6 at HMP is hard as it is, but in no way 'undoable'. 14 miles of jog are just warmup. Maybe take water and something sugary to refill if you're anxious.

It could be fun thing to do in a group with someone a bit stronger providing pacing. Last Sunday I did 30K with local sub-elites, 25K at around my personal best marathon pace (hopefully my current MP is faster than that) and progressively increasing for the last 5 all the way to 10K pace. I felt elated and not even that beat.