I was going to write on this thread, but Patgalaxy basically just said everything I was going to.
You. Nailed. It.
I was going to write on this thread, but Patgalaxy basically just said everything I was going to.
You. Nailed. It.
The point on specialisation is wrong. You don't see Kipchoge do what the the top Euros do. That is spend all winter doing a different sport, i.e. skiing (mainly skimo), then in summer apart from the varying races if you follow any of them on Strava they also cycle a lot.
I think they get their summer trail base work in during winter with skiing. Then they hit summer with A LOT of climbing prep in the bag and it's a matter of maintaining rather than building.
Even our good friend Sage Canaday noticed the skimo thing and had started doing it before he got sick.
Actually where is he? Interested to hear his two cents
historical perspective wrote:
broken arrow wrote:
As great as he is, it is tough to recover from WS fully in 2 months, and to win WS, you have to go 100%. Then your training for UTMB is not a focus because there was recovery from WS, then a taper for UTMB, so really how many weeks of specific training is there, maybe four? The Europeans train specifically for this race.
Except Francois won Hardrock in record time just 6 weeks ago and that is a more demanding course. Courtney attempted Hardrock as well, although it looks like her DNF there may have been a blessing in disguise.
Where does Francois' back-to-back wins at HR and UTMB rank among the all-time great performances in ultra running? Surely, the greatest ultra mountain/trail double ever?
I believe (and Jim said) that a race like Western States, mostly runnable, takes much more out of you than Hardrock, where everyone hikes at least 35-50% or more. Yes, Hardrock is a "tougher" course, as is UTMB, but as far as beating up the body, WSER does more damage.
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that both times Francois ran WSER, he did NOT also win (or even attempt) UTMB.
broken arrow wrote:
I believe (and Jim said) that a race like Western States, mostly runnable, takes much more out of you than Hardrock, where everyone hikes at least 35-50% or more. Yes, Hardrock is a "tougher" course, as is UTMB, but as far as beating up the body, WSER does more damage.
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that both times Francois ran WSER, he did NOT also win (or even attempt) UTMB.
Sounds about right.
Tim has crushed utmb in the past. Tim Olson, mike Foote, David laney, Seth Swanson have all done well. Watch for Anton In 2022
boo soccer sucks wrote:
Why?
Europeans dominate this race.
Maybe Tollefson can tell us why he DNFs every year.
Where’s Jamil Coury?
Rob Krar?
That arrogant Joe Gray? He claims to be so great.
Where’s Zach Miller?
The Nike Trail team ??
Where’s Anton?
Booo!!!!
Lol weird takes:
Tim has done amazing in this race in the past. Doesn't dnf every year
Jamil is awesome but not upper level elite to win utmb (he ran it this year btw...not sure of his placing but he was running)
Rob Krar is Canadian.
Joe will never touch this distance
Zach has been injured off and on for years
Anton even more than Zach and Rob in terms of injury and only just completed Leadville this summer for the first time in eons.
But to answer your question, I'll just reiterate what others have said: more focus on US races, less specificity in training in Europe = poorer UTMB results. I wish Tim hadn't run western states because he was America's most proven UTMB runner, even more than Jim.
Top 5 were French right? Amazing.
Then again US women have done better so what do I know?....is it just some amazing outliers like Courtney and Rory though?
why wrote:
literally get eaten alive at UTMB
This I doubt very much.
Robbie Simpson is from Inverness, he struggles to speak English let alone French. He did alright. Load of mince , they are simply not as good. Lower quality opposition. Overhyped.
Clearly you don’t follow the sport. Maybe you should read what others pointed out in this forum.
why wrote:
Clearly you don’t follow the sport. Maybe you should read what others pointed out in this forum.
I believe the literal mr38 was literally commenting on the literal meaning of "literally get eaten alive."
This thread is exactly why people don’t care about trail running.
Francois ran in custom prototype hyper stack trail shoes unreleased to market or registered with World Athletics and no one here gives a sh!t because we realize UTMB is a joke with no prize money and no competition.
He should be DQ’d because of his shoes with all the new rules allowing visibility and transparency.
Courtney and Walms wore off the shelf Salomon and HOKA. Francois did not.
Why the heck do all of you point to D'Haene to say that something like a Western/Hardrock + UTMB double is no big deal? The guy is goddamn near superhuman and clearly one of the best ultrarunners to walk the earth.
Courtney's performance brought her to within 8% of D'Haen's time, which is slightly better than the "10% slower" number we always hear for women versus men. I agree that Courtney's performance was all-time fantastic, but Bowman loves the superlatives; she might not have been even the best performance of yesterday, much less all time. Sorokin's 24-hour world best effort is arguably better.
Courtney and Francois ran amazing...as did Sorokin. As far as "comparisons" of finishing times and "what is better" go, I'd like to stay away from direct Women Vs. Men comparisons. Courtney was probably set up well for UTMB because she didn't finish Hardrock. Francois probably could've run faster if he didn't finish Hardrock. Their races and performances were independent though. Sorokin no doubt took down a legendary record...for men maybe that could be considered the greatest of all time. But then again, it doesn't have the "glamor" of running in the mountains....or even something like a Comrades. To those that think that winning UTMB has no prestige because there is no open prize money. Ha! You win UTMB and you're going to be set with a sponsorship that's so good you can quit your day job...and prob a good 5-figure bonus from maybe multiple sponsors. As far as American men at UTMB goes...well I'd say you're still dealing with a very small sample size. Personally I would not do two 100-milers in a summer as that can be exhausting. Furthermore, WS100 is a totally different kind or race compared to UTMB. It's almost like if you're super fit for WS100 it's going to be a liability for UTMB....and the turnaround is really tight. People often forget that WS is a pretty big net downhill course. The level of comp at UTMB just has a lot more depth as well. For example, I ran horrible at both and basically walked it in for the last 30-40 miles with stomach issues etc. At Western I could still get 11th place doing that. At UTMB I got like 50th place doing that. So the margin of error in the mountains makes things go exponentially bad as well. More time to really screw up with gear/nutrition and quad pounding downhills. Night running when it's cold and you're high up on a mountain pass takes some getting used to as well. But Euro style mountain running is a lot different from US Mountain running in pretty much all the races. Best bet is probably to train in the Sierras for UTMB if you're from the US...although we've got some spots in Colorado that are pretty good as well! Courtney got it figured out!
Makes Paper wrote:
Courtney's performance brought her to within 8% of D'Haen's time, which is slightly better than the "10% slower" number we always hear for women versus men. I agree that Courtney's performance was all-time fantastic, but Bowman loves the superlatives; she might not have been even the best performance of yesterday, much less all time. Sorokin's 24-hour world best effort is arguably better.
DNFs in UTMB are embarrassing. So called "pro" runners come obviously underprepared, and run ridiculously fast from the start to then quit. Why do you set an obviously unsustainable pace?
Just checked: at les Contamines, three hours into the race, still 50 guys within 15 minutes of d'Haene. At La Balme, four hours into the race, 40 guys within 20 minutes. Where the hell are you going?
fnhriel wrote:
Francois ran in custom prototype hyper stack trail shoes unreleased to market or registered with World Athletics and no one here gives a sh!t because we realize UTMB is a joke with no prize money
Not a prototype. SAMPLE production. Ultra Glide Midsole and Outsole with an SLAB upper. Coming next season. Francois wasn't the only runner using this shoe. Check the feet of a couple of top CCC Salomon athletes
So no DQ. Win stands. You continue to lose
I think training specifically in the Alps helps. I trained for the CCC in Grand County CO, and I felt like I mimicked the trails very well but at such a high altitude that they were not runnable like in Chamonix where the altitude is 8000’ at the highest points of the course.
My heart rate was never spiking during the race like would happen training in Colorado up to 13000’. I didn’t have as much steep running training to go off of.
Look at Francois’ training. He had 5 or so long runs there between Hardrock and UTMB on the course. Him and Kilian are in their own class of recovery from these mountain races.
You want to excel at UTMB? Ski all winter, ride all spring, run a lot in the summer.
What are your 2022 plans Sage, assuming you're back to full health? Can you get back into the Golden Trail series after a year out?