A picture is worth a thousands words. Ask a 5 year old, which of the following athletes is intersex and dominating World Jrs?

Beatrice is not cheating.

She is taking advantage of a loophole in the system.

it's very legal and very cool.

That is literally a man. Allowing men to compete with women means the end of womens sports.

Also, why are they always from Namibia?

LRC response. Your post is the type of post we don't really want. She is not a man. We think the proper definition is intersex. While we don't know the particulars of her situation, it's like she has no penis, no uterus but does have internal testes. That seems pretty much the definition of intersex - external genitalia that is female, internal that is male. Men generally have penises.

OozmaKappa wrote:

That is literally a man. Allowing men to compete with women means the end of womens sports.

Also, why are they always from Namibia?

LRC response. Your post is the type of post we don't really want. She is not a man. We think the proper definition is intersex. While we don't know the particulars of her situation, it's like she has no penis, no uterus but does have internal testes. That seems pretty much the definition of intersex - external genitalia that is female, internal that is male. Men generally have penises.

I'm not very well-versed in this. She's definitely "female" but is "intersex", meaning has testes that produce testosterone at a level much higher than your "typical female". It's not "fair" in my opinion, but she is "natural" and not deliberately cheating.

This is definitely a grey area and tougher to decide how to handle this situation than say transgender issues which involves pharmaceuticals and gender identity, and is more common sense to figure out imo.

I also agree with the LRC Note/response(brave I know)

Let's not allow this to devolve into stupidity. Stick to facts and try to be tolerant and reasonable. No hate from either side.

The fact is that she seems more phenotypically male than female.

Should be against the rules to compete in this division with functioning internal testies.

potato_salad wrote:

Beatrice is not cheating.

She is taking advantage of a loophole in the system.

it's very legal and very cool.

She was born this way, I don't think she's taking advantage of the system. The system doesn't account for her, that's not her fault. And we can't blame the system for this because being intersex is fairly rare. But this is increasingly seeming like something that needs to be addressed in a reasonable way.

Intersex females, at least any I know, aren't performing at the level of men so it wouldn't be right to force her to do so. Forcing her to lowering her test wouldn't be right either, and also wouldn't solve her performance advantage over woman, completely. She didn't choose to have higher test than other woman, she just does, she was born that way.

I know this may be a simpletons take, so feel free to correct(or bash me since this is letsrun) but isn’t it weird that we find ways to make women who are good at sports unable to compete as females because they exhibit masculine traits? As in, the traits that would make one good at sports? Like say there is a woman who just DOES produce that much testosterone by some freak condition. Why is she not allowed to compete? As the female equivalent of Usain Bolt?

If Masilingi is a male as you are all

suggesting,then why isn't she running

10s as male jrs are ?

Africans or blacks in general are not

voicing objections,all the complaints

are from whites.As long as the advantage

purported is natural and not artificial,I

see no problem here.I have yet to hear

any objection to anyone participating in

a spelling bee or chess match because

they have a more natural affinity for it

simple one wrote:

I know this may be a simpletons take, so feel free to correct(or bash me since this is letsrun) but isn’t it weird that we find ways to make women who are good at sports unable to compete as females because they exhibit masculine traits? As in, the traits that would make one good at sports? Like say there is a woman who just DOES produce that much testosterone by some freak condition. Why is she not allowed to compete? As the female equivalent of Usain Bolt?

I think I get what you're saying...And I barely know what I'm talking about so I welcome other takes.

Let's take intersex out of it, there are some woman who have more masculine traits or produce much higher test than average, and those are probably the types medaling in 100m races. No girly girl is winning any strength and power events if we're being honest.

But I suppose the issue is that intersex woman have much more test than woman on the higher level of the typical spectrum. I guess woman can have abnormally high test from other health issues too, like those related to thyroid, ovaries, and insulin resistance.

People talk about prenatal test too, would intersex females benefit from this? I'm guessing some of them benefit from the increased muscle and bone development during puberty from their heightened test, saying this based off that picture.

The question is not “man or woman” (gender roles), it is “male or female” (biological roles).

Having a penis is not dispositive in determining a male. Males who have lost their penis due to combat wounds or traumatic injury from something like a car accident are still male.

18 is old enough to understand what is happening. This person sees the opportunity to make money, and is taking it. It *may* very well be the only way they perceive they can make any, or the way they believe they can make the most. Also, their handlers (who are the ones running the show) are using the broader system to make money off these participants. It is the handlers—agents, coaches, club owners—who control these things, the often young and credulous participants are just along for the ride.

Their ability to do this needs to end. Why? What exactly is it that they are doing? Same thing as always—taking advantage of females by denying them fair competition.

Would it be fair to these participants to have them compete in the male category? Absolutely. They have all the same relevant equipment as does any other male.

You should ask yourselves why in the first place we define competitive categories using male and female biologies, rather than any other criterion: it is because they are the most relevant determinants of ultimate capability in the exercise. There is broad spread within each of the two biological categories, but that spread is what determines winners, losers, placements, and qualifiers. It was never unfair to me that I was competing against guys who were faster than me, and guys who I would never equal. Yeah that’s right, I was never going sub-10 cleanly, and that’s that. It’s about doing your best and competing honorably, not about winning.

Similarly, I beat my fair share of guys, which was not unfair to them. There is only ever 1 winner, and sometimes there are greats. So I race two WR-holders—do I have a shot at winning, if they don’t get injured? No. Then why do I race? Because I love it, and because I am allowed to do it. I am just a sideshow in the 100m, these guys will meet faster guys internationally where if they make a mistake they will be beaten. Is it all fair to everyone? Absolutely, It is why we seed heats according to times.

I hobbled through one race this year, with a torn calf. I put 13s as a seed time, and ended up in a heat with 17-20 yr old girls. While the clock malfunctioned and I don’t know my time, I do know that I finished back in the pack, after having to shut down at 65m with no start. Fair to the females? Absolutely. Why? Because I was honest with myself and with others about my seed time. Fair to me? Absolutely. I have not become female because I ran 12-13s.

This whole situation is an embarrassment of weakness and greed, It is a product of morality of convenience and desire to maximize income. To advance sustainably, we need to find solutions that address the issues while being of net benefit to all of society, including all females. The current situation IMO does not represent such a solution.

I know what people will say. Males and females can compete side-by-side, as long as both have a shot at beating the other—but they should not be in the same award category.

Distance races included, IMO.

Ain't 1857 wrote:

If Masilingi is a male as you are all

suggesting,then why isn't she running

10s as male jrs are ?

Africans or blacks in general are not

voicing objections,all the complaints

are from whites.As long as the advantage

purported is natural and not artificial,I

see no problem here.I have yet to hear

any objection to anyone participating in

a spelling bee or chess match because

they have a more natural affinity for it

Nobody is suggesting that because she is not male, she is intersex female. Any debate is about whether it is fair for an intersex female(who has a large amount of testosterone due to having THE male sex organ, testes, that is responsible for producing testosterone) to compete against a "typical female".

Intersex females' performance ability seems to lie somewhere between female and male performance, better than females but still less than males. But we don't have much data to go off of, perhaps it is possible for an intersex female to compete with top males.

Please don't try to make this about race when it has nothing to do with it.

I believe the issue people take with intersex females competing against other females, is that they have an unfair advantage against other females due to having male sexual organs that produce high levels of testosterone. Testosterone plays a big part in the performance differences between females and males.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

The question is not “man or woman” (gender roles), it is “male or female” (biological roles).

Having a penis is not dispositive in determining a male. Males who have lost their penis due to combat wounds or traumatic injury from something like a car accident are still male.

.

So, I want to ask this carefully...and for you to answer carefully. Discussion is good, and I don't want anyone to get banned so please just answer my specific question.

Do you consider whether someone is biologically male or female by whether they are born with testes? Other sex organs are ignored? This isn't a "gotcha" type question, I'm just looking for clarification. I think that's fair if that's your opinion, makes sense because testes are what produces testosterone which plays a big part in separating the biological sexes.

I suppose chromosomes are another way to categorize too. Males being XY, and females being XX. I believe intersex people can be XXY for instance, I believe there's other combinations as well.

I think the point is that a 5 year old is smarter than the average indoctrinated "liberal" who thinks a person with a wiener can still be a woman.

bbn wrote:

I think the point is that a 5 year old is smarter than the average indoctrinated "liberal" who thinks a person with a wiener can still be a woman.

That kid from Kindergarten Cop is a bigot...if that's who you're talking about.

You shouldn't get all of you're information from him not just because he's a bigot, but because he's a 5 year old bigot that was taught wrong by his bigot parents.

I really hope he was sent to a reeducation camp.

I apologize for the above joke, couldn't help myself.

Yes, award (and entry where it is limited) categories are divided by human decision. Again, ask yourself why we made a female category at all.

Many here have asked this very question—ie why not just have a single category? To protect women from men? No, as long as participation is voluntary, of course in particular reference to combat and contact sports.

Why have females received this particularly beneficial treatment in the past? And why have inferior, 10.4 males not received the same treatment? Consider that in boxing, wrestling, weightlifting, etc there are actually different award categories within each biological gender category., based on ultimate performance ability. Is it an ego thing? Do males just not want to ever acknowledge that they will always be inferior to some other male? How do flyweight combat sport participants feel about that? Or super-heavyweights who really want to do gymnastics?

Ask yourself the basic questions first, that is where the principles lie that make the smaller questions easy to answer. The problem is that tptb are ill-informed, cowardly, inarticulate, easily distracted, and ultimately even more easily bought. The result in my case? My only involvement in the OG was a few comments in this forum.

Things can change, and when they do, you have a decision to make. My decision is taking its natural course, and playing out over time: I am voting with my attention, money, and my feet, all with the ultimate destination of leaving pro/high level t&f forever. I am almost there, and that is both my and track’s loss, that track has occasioned. It happened to me decades ago with the major leagues and even the NCAA—they lost me, completely. I now enjoy watching HS state champs, anything above that level is totally uninteresting to me.

Not only that, but I now do many things to starve the beast by legally reducing my tax burden. These national federations etc receive lots of funding, and I have reduced my contribution thereto. While much is now deficit-financed, I will also not be around to pay that bill for such things that I do not support. I am really voting with my feet. No I am not moving to Afghanistan,.

Who says we are not?