Curious_Cat wrote:
I'm also gonna call BS on the 21.7 as we;;. Amos could "only" run a 21.34 off a 44.99 400m PR, and unlike Ovett, he's extremely speed-based. Most likely a misprint as someone suggested and 22.7 sounds about right.
well ^
Was Lydiard wrong?
High School Running
Distance
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regularguy wrote:
I've only read about half the thread, but:
The value of the Lydiard method--especially with middle school and high school runners--is that the centerpiece is long term aerobic development. The challenge for US coaches is to get young runnersto commit to consistent training, and using the Lydiard framework or some appropriate adaptation sets up the right priorities.
Too many hs programs in the US just beat the piss out of kids for the sacntioned 12 week seaon with short term goals.
Not smart.
I once counted the number of high school boys who ran under 2:00 for the 800 metres in a school year. There were about 4000. Yet how many of those kids go on to run sub-4 miles? Your statement is extremely smart, go to the head of the class!
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rekrunner wrote:
When you understand Einstein’s relativity, do you ask if Newton was wrong?
When you consider the context of the ‘50s and ‘60s, Lydiard provided a combination of right answers built on what was learned before.
What happened since the ‘60s and ‘70s, besides changes in training and periodization, were changes in racing schedules and the shift towards event specialization.
One thing I think that is overlooked that Lydiard got right is that with a lot of time spent in “general” training phases, the whole team can train together, which can develop a team atmosphere and camaraderie. This can be important in high school and university.
Lydiard has “specific” training, but this occurs very late in the classic “linear” periodization, in his “coordination” phase. One of the main criticisms is that the athlete neglects “specific” training for many months while building up his base, hill training, and track training. Whether this is a problem depends on your racing schedule and when you need to be near racing shape.
Yet the Lydiard approach is not rigid, he himself made adaptations to his periodization, so that you can extend your racing period with “race weeks” and “non-race” weeks while sticking with the main principles that maintain the balance of “aerobic” and “anaerobic” fitness, while not training/racing past your peak. Rob DeCastella kept the Lydiard principles, while scrapping the linear periodization, maintaining his speed year round. You might fairly ask how many elements you can keep and how much you can discard, before it is no longer Lydiard. But a rose by any other name …
When I was in school, I competed in track in the spring, and cross-country in the fall. A Lydiard periodization with long aerobic recovery/buildup in the summer and winter would have fit right in without adaptation.
Your post is marvelous and Lydiard did change his theories over the years. What he brought to Ethiopia got them to where they are today. Many high school coaches start the season running multiple interval days. This is especially true in track & field where the weather can be limiting and races come up really fast and often! And now with the very best kids running pre-season near state championships and also XC and T&F national championships colliding in the months of November, December and January, high school athletics in America are a mess in every event!
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I knew Arthur fairly well and know others who knew him even better than I did. He and I talked about his time in Venezuela, Mexico, Denmark, Finland, and of course, New Zealand. He never told me he worked in Ethiopia and none of the others who knew him ever told me he did. Where did you find this and when was it?
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HRE wrote:
I knew Arthur fairly well and know others who knew him even better than I did. He and I talked about his time in Venezuela, Mexico, Denmark, Finland, and of course, New Zealand. He never told me he worked in Ethiopia and none of the others who knew him ever told me he did. Where did you find this and when was it?
HRE,
You are a famous and long-term writer on LETSRUN.COM so I will give you my best answer. I've been running, coaching, and now writing for over 50 years, and Athletics is my best sport. Like many of us Tracknuts, you can trust that I have read everything I could find written by Arthur Lydiard, and I interviewed one of his most famous Kiwi Olympic Medalists. I will not tell you which one because that might give my real name away. I've also been interviewing many other Olympic Medalists, including Gold Medalists.
I've heard and read many things Lydiard did, including his coaching in Ethiopia. It's been in writing and overheard. They also described the type of workouts prescribed by Lydiard, which has led to the fantastic 200-meter fast finishes we've seen over the last few years. People do not want to believe something they don't believe, and also, people are going to be haters, and there is nothing you or I can do about it.
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Well, you've got me intrigued. I just e-mailed Barry Magee and asked him about it.
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I heard back from Barry. He never heard of Lydiard having anything to do with Ethiopia either so I can't believe he went there. You say you've heard and read of it. If you find a link to something you read about this I'd appreciate seeing it.
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Look at the successes of The University of Colorado Boulder.
numerous NCAA team championships
Individual Championships
olympians
Mark Wetmore is a lydiard disciple
read Running with the Buffs
Everytime I Did Lydiards program I program I pr several times
its not for the feightn of heart tho
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Lydiardrocks wrote:
Look at the successes of The University of Colorado Boulder.
numerous NCAA team championships
Individual Championships
olympians
Mark Wetmore is a lydiard disciple
read Running with the Buffs
Everytime I Did Lydiards program I program I pr several times
its not for the feightn of heart tho
Can you please provide a specific reference(s) describing the details of which Lydiard program you followed?
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Jed Clampett wrote:
Some coaches say he had runners doing too much distance. However, Lydiard's theory was
to "work on stamina for as long as possible." You can strengthen the aerobic system almost indefinitely,
but running without air is extremely limited in all athletes.
I know that we must add speed a little bit all along the way when working with a scholastic team. Yet, we have way too many 2:00 800 high school runners in this country who are not meeting their potential because we work too much on the anaerobic systems. We need more long runs and less racing!
You're taking what he said out of context a bit. Lydiard is wrongfully attributed to high mileage all the time, no speed, aerobic, aerobic, aerobic and that's simply not true. The things he figured out through hill bounding and double runs is genius. They used to do tons of hill work at different times of the year. He did a lot of things that did work on speed but just didn't quite call it that. People like Daniels and other came around with more interval centric work and people assumed Lydiard was the opposite for some reason.
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This.
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Jerry Maguire wrote:
I believe where Lydiard falls short is the extreme periodization.
That is where Canova comes in.
I think mixing of all elements during every phase is key to success. Varying how much attention you give specific elements depending on the phase you are in. Training helps your training which helps your training.... constantly evolving.
I also believe you get further in each phase by blending everything together and stay healthier.
Lydiard doesn't fall short.Many ways to skin a cat. Canova just do the periodization another way. Then we have our new golden boy on the boards , mr JS. He does it without periodization.A great coach. New thinking.
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#113
This post was removed.
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Running to the Top by Arthur Lydiard
there was also a schedule by Nobby (can’t remember his last name)
that described the build up
your endurance will be unreal after doing the mileages
When I did it last time
was doing 18-22 every third day toward the last part of base building
Unfortunately I got hit by a car riding my bike so I couldn’t do the entire speed work section
but my stamina endurance was off the charts
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too little money wrote:
Snell needs to stop being used to extol the benefits of Lydiard's system for 800m runners. Anyone that's seen a picture of him should see that he was a genetic freak. He went from not really being a runner to Olympic champ in 3 years. That kind of improvement isn't in any way typical, and isn't due to some magical coaching formula. Snell may have been one of the [few] 800m type runners [whose] body could hold up to Lydiard's mileage requirements. It worked for him and him alone. Lydiard never had another athlete like Snell and he never repeated Snell's success.
Yes, thanks, been saying this for years. Snell was sui generis and I think he would have been a world-beater under *any* system. I've occasionally speculated about how he would have done with Igloi, for example.
I still think Snell was lucky to team up with Lydiard, who happened to have the tools to develop Snell's unique gifts. But I remember Snell himself saying that, were he to do it again, he might include a weekly set of quarters in the base period. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Snell (and others) did do a good deal of hilly mileage in their base training--hard to avoid in their locale--and hills, depending on how they're done, do serve as "speedwork in disguise."00
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