Joey Votto

Flagpole wrote:

Just FYI.

Joey Votto has 8 home runs in the last 6 games including home runs in 6 consecutive games.

Color me surprised.

Mostly Cubs pitching.

He's had a Hall of Fame caliber career overall. Had a very slow start this year and looked done. But slow starts are common in baseball. His team has a lot of good hitters and team success usually motivates individual success in baseball. He's single handedly won the fantasy week for many teams this week but he's only owned in just over 50% of standard fantasy leagues right now. My opponent left him on his bench this week. Ouch.

Steve The Addict^^^^^^^------- wrote:

He's had a Hall of Fame caliber career overall. Had a very slow start this year and looked done. But slow starts are common in baseball. His team has a lot of good hitters and team success usually motivates individual success in baseball. He's single handedly won the fantasy week for many teams this week but he's only owned in just over 50% of standard fantasy leagues right now. My opponent left him on his bench this week. Ouch.

He just hit another home run today, so 7 games in a row with a home run. 9 home runs during that time.

I would have put Votto just outside the Hall of Fame looking in, but depending on what he does the rest of this season, and if he can manage a couple more halfway decent seasons, maybe I would agree if he gets in. He does appear to have a lot of support for it.

Under appreciated ball player. Has won an mvp and many the me leader in ops. Decent power but not usually close to hr leave. Borderline hall of fame. Seems like a good guy. Few more good years and cool or make hall of fame.

Steve The Addict^^^^^^^------- wrote:

He's had a Hall of Fame caliber career overall. Had a very slow start this year and looked done. But slow starts are common in baseball. His team has a lot of good hitters and team success usually motivates individual success in baseball. He's single handedly won the fantasy week for many teams this week but he's only owned in just over 50% of standard fantasy leagues right now. My opponent left him on his bench this week. Ouch.

His start this year was on par with his awful 2019 and 2020 seasons. His current streak came out of nowhere and is similar to Phil Mickelson winning the PGA. The streak will end and the Reds will pay another $45M for about zero WAR the next two years plus another $7M to buy him out before 2024.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Steve The Addict^^^^^^^------- wrote:

He's had a Hall of Fame caliber career overall. Had a very slow start this year and looked done. But slow starts are common in baseball. His team has a lot of good hitters and team success usually motivates individual success in baseball. He's single handedly won the fantasy week for many teams this week but he's only owned in just over 50% of standard fantasy leagues right now. My opponent left him on his bench this week. Ouch.

His start this year was on par with his awful 2019 and 2020 seasons. His current streak came out of nowhere and is similar to Phil Mickelson winning the PGA. The streak will end and the Reds will pay another $45M for about zero WAR the next two years plus another $7M to buy him out before 2024.

Yeah...he IS 37 years old after all. Baseball players don't last forever.

Flagpole wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

His start this year was on par with his awful 2019 and 2020 seasons. His current streak came out of nowhere and is similar to Phil Mickelson winning the PGA. The streak will end and the Reds will pay another $45M for about zero WAR the next two years plus another $7M to buy him out before 2024.

Yeah...he IS 37 years old after all. Baseball players don't last forever.

He's far from being the only guy past his prime with a few years left on a monster contract. The owners get burned over and over again with these long-term contracts but keep coming back for more.

#VottoStillBangs

https://mobile.twitter.com/eviljoeyvotto?lang=en

2d in NL Central and over .500! Needs to win the NL Central to make the playoffs though unless the West tanks. So probably won't happen.

Still.....old man Votto cranking it.

Alan

He's a Hall of Famer on rate stats but not on counting stats, so he's got to keep plugging away. At first base, his homers won't cut it, nor his hits (316/1983), but he's averaged 37 doubles and 28 home runs per 162 games. He's led the NL 7 times in on base percentage and has the 24th best all-time OBP at .418. At .303, his batting average is still there, though it will go under .300 before he retires. His OPS is also very strong at .937 and OPS+ 148. So, a couple more good seasons might be enough with the emphasis on the rate stats nowadays.

2021/Career

WAR 1.7

Career 62.6

AB 270

Career 6544

H 75

Career H 1983

HR 21

Career 316

BA .278

Career .303

R 40

R 1081

RBI 59

1025

SB 1

80

OBP .374

.418

SLG .563

.519

OPS .937

.937

OPS+ 136

148

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Yeah...he IS 37 years old after all. Baseball players don't last forever.

He's far from being the only guy past his prime with a few years left on a monster contract. The owners get burned over and over again with these long-term contracts but keep coming back for more.

That's a very simplistic way of looking at it. Votto signed a 10yr $225M deal -- meaning the Reds are paying (on average) 22.5M a year for him. He's had above-league-average wRC+ his entire career (and a + fWAR...) so even if you feel like you're "overpaying" at the end of his career, you got multiple seasons of All-Star level production for ~$4M/fWAR, which is a giant steal. That basically means Joey Votto could sit out a full season and still have produced what you expected from his contract (again, he's never had a negative fWAR season). MLB owners and GMs aren't idiots, despite what the general populace chooses to believe. They know that locking down a player for 8+ years doesn't guarantee 8 years of All-Star production, but they are gambling on the fact that they will get 4 years (or more) of quality that pays for the entire contract itself.

+1. Not to mention that it’s not our money, and owning an MLB franchise is basically a license to print money through appreciating asset value and subsidized real estate projects. For me as a fan of the game, Joey Votto has been a delight to watch and worth every penny. This mini-Renaissance of his (which has been more than a week—he has been mashing for the bulk of the summer) brings me joy.

He's had a really nice career but he's not really close to being a HOF guy.

His career BA of 303 is very impressive but his Hits, HR and RBI numbers are rather pedestrian

for a power guy. Unless he's got some compelling "new age" Bill James stats going for him, don't see

how you can make a solid case for this guy. He doesn't even have 2000 career hits yet, and barely over

300 career home runs, only surpassed 100 RBI's three times.

6403 wrote:

He's had a really nice career but he's not really close to being a HOF guy.

His career BA of 303 is very impressive but his Hits, HR and RBI numbers are rather pedestrian

for a power guy. Unless he's got some compelling "new age" Bill James stats going for him, don't see

how you can make a solid case for this guy. He doesn't even have 2000 career hits yet, and barely over

300 career home runs, only surpassed 100 RBI's three times.

Faulting a player for RBI is laughable. Players with better WPA than Votto not in the HOF: Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera, Manny Ramirez, Pete Rose, Mark McGwire, Todd Helton, Lance Berkman. He is an all-time elite hitter, and top 10 of his era. You can fault him for his hits total (he will pass 2000 this season), but you have to recognize that his OBP is 24th all time. 1983 hits and 1256 walks. Incredible.

Your argument is laughable.

Pujols and Cabrera are still playing, ARod, Ramirez are tainted by steroids, Rose banned from the betting scandal, Helton played in Denver so his stats are padded, Berkman, really?

So your case rests on his OBP is 24th all time? Give it a rest.

I like Votto as a player but he is really borderline at best for the HOF. He is basically a Bobby Abreu type player. Abreau has had 2 years of voting results and hasn't cracked 10 percent yet.

I hear that logic all the time, but even early in his contract what should $22.5 get an owner in the here and now? Mookie Betts is currently making $30M a year and that should buy by an owner a top 5 MVP player. What's worse is that most of long-term contracts contain an opt-out clause so in the unlikely event that a player does out perform their contract, the team either loses him or has to negotiate an extension at a higher rate and tack on a few more years. If there is an opt-out clause, the only outcomes for an owner range from a train wreck to getting what they paid for.

Meanwhile, only a portion of NFL long-term contracts are guaranteed.

In response to the other poster's comment, small market teams absolutely do not have the ability to print money. Their only only available strategy for having a play-off team, other than being extremely lucky, is to stink it up for a few years like the Astros did and accumulate some early round picks. Sally should be ashamed.

in the real world wrote:

I like Votto as a player but he is really borderline at best for the HOF. He is basically a Bobby Abreu type player. Abreau has had 2 years of voting results and hasn't cracked 10 percent yet.

I tend to agree that Votto is borderline at best based on traditional stats (and I am a traditional stats guy).

He DOES have some things in his favor though above Abreu:

1) He has more HRs now.

2) His batting average is higher...a LOT higher.

3) His OBP is insane.

4) Assuming he finishes with Cincinnati (a great likelihood), this benefits him for some reason...baseball writers seem to like guys who play their whole careers for one team.

If I were to be a betting man (I'm not), I would bet that Votto will eventually be elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. I don't think he should be (at least not as of now), but I think he will be. I think Dave Concepcion deserved to be elected more than Votto...and a lot more than many who are in the Hall.

He's way better than Abreu, but he just doesn't have enough time left to fill up the resume.

It took Jeff Bagwell 7 times to get elected, and Votto is not even close to Bagwell.

Maybe if the voters start taking into account all of those wacky Bill James stats, he can someday sneak

in but I certainly would not be the farm on it.

There were rumors of steroid use that hindered Bagwell's selection.

Another topic, but for a period of time, Bonds was by far the greatest MLB hitter in history. If the HOF was limited to one guy, it should be him. If he grudgingly gets in about 15 years later, I doubt if he would want to travel to Cooperstown and give a peach.