CDC: Myocarditis is 27 to 219 times more common in males Cole Hocker's age post-vaccination than expected

drbop wrote:

Emergency room doctor here, one who has taken care of a lot of people with myocarditis. The vaccine is producing myocarditis in 1 per 20,000 people vaccinated. The disease is producing myocarditis in 60% of the people getting the disease. No that is not a misprint, here is the reference from the primary literature.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32730619/

I believe that we will ultimately identify symptomatic myocarditis in 1 - 2 % of the people infected with the virus. The rate will be much, much lower, but still non-zero rate in those who get the vaccine. If we go looking closely at all persons who present with the disease, as these German researchers did, we will find that most get myocarditis.

That study was debunked long ago.

"Soon after its publication, however, the paper was criticized for statistical and methodological errors. It eventually underwent a long but much quieter correction that indicated that many of the abnormalities were only marginally more common among those recovering from Covid-19 than among similar control individuals who had not had Covid-19."

I would hardly call that a debunking. If you look at the study, you will see that the authors make their raw data available, look at them yourself rather than accept somebody else's criticism of their statistical methods. Also note that in my post I suggest that "real," symptomatic myocarditis will be diagnosed in about 1 - 2 % of people recovering from the disease, very similar to what these critics are predicting. That is two or three orders of magnitude greater than the rate of myocarditis in those receiving the vaccine. This is not surprising, since those receiving the vaccine are getting just a small portion of the viral genome, while those getting the disease are getting the whole thing!

You obviously didn't read the rest of the article. There were also other studies with a much higher sample size that debunked the claim.

"In April, another group of authors published a series of 19,000 athletes who were tested for Covid-19. About 3,000 tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, most of whom then underwent basic cardiac testing. Reassuringly, less than 1% of these work-ups yielded abnormal findings. And just 21 of the 3,000 had definite, probable, or possible cardiac involvement based on lab testing and cardiac imaging. Five (0.2%) of the athletes required hospitalization for non-cardiac complications of Covid-19 and one (0.03%) had a successfully resuscitated cardiac arrest that was deemed not related to Covid-19 because a heart scan done as part of the evaluation showed no evidence of myocarditis."

"In a stronger study published last week, an international team compared two groups of health care workers: one with Covid-19 and the other without it. There were absolutely no differences in biomarkers of heart function or heart scans using echocardiography or magnetic resonance."

well actually wrote:

"In April, another group of authors published a series of 19,000 athletes who were tested for Covid-19. About 3,000 tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, most of whom then underwent basic cardiac testing. Reassuringly, less than 1% of these work-ups yielded abnormal findings. And just 21 of the 3,000 had definite, probable, or possible cardiac involvement based on lab testing and cardiac imaging. Five (0.2%) of the athletes required hospitalization for non-cardiac complications of Covid-19 and one (0.03%) had a successfully resuscitated cardiac arrest that was deemed not related to Covid-19 because a heart scan done as part of the evaluation showed no evidence of myocarditis."

21:3000 is, of course, a much worse ratio than the vaccine. Everything must be compared relative to the vaccine given the known, obvious, and significant benefits the vaccine provides, even in young healthy people.

This is painful fearmongering from Rojo. Why is he so mad that his knee-jerk response to Hocker was wrong? It's ok to change your mind.

man you just can't help doubling down on being an @#$@#$

A full approval would not include any more comprehensive safety data than we already have. The phase three trials are not large enough to have caught exceedingly rare complication such as myocarditits, AFAIK.

The reason your 3 year old is not eligible is because TRIALS HAVE NOT BEEN COMPLETED YET IN CHILDREN. You want more safety data, you're getting it!

We have more safety data than basically any vaccine every given the enormous breadth of the vaccination campaign and careful attention to post-EUA safety signals.

You are totally discounting the catastrophic impact of a positive test on Hocker's career as well as the risk he gets COVID and spreads it.

It's also surprising because if you google 'vaccine EUA' you find tons of articles explaining how the EUA does not really skip any safety monitoring at all.

If you're going to make several threads about this you should at least be willing to change your mind.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

That we cannot have an honest discussion about the vaccine is why there is so much hesitancy. A lot of people want to pretend there is 0 risk and you are a bad person for even discussing it. We have some bad history surrounding vaccines as recently as this century with anthrax vaccines for soldiers. If we had an honest discussion I think a lot more people who are on the fence would decide the risk of the vaccine is much less than the risk of Covid and would get vaccinated. For kids and younger adults this discussion definately makes sense.

I agree with this sentiment. If you tell people "everything is fine, here is what you have to believe, there are no issues with the XYZ, you are not allowed to discuss it, just take it", I don't think it leads to more people taking it.

Especially since during covid so much of expert opinion has changed course.

Even take the J&J vaccine. When it was approved it didn't mean it was perfectly safe. It meant the experts thought it was better to take it than not. Then there were some serious concerns and they paused it to re-examine They then came back and said "it's still worth taking." Should people not have been allowed to discuss any of this along the way?

Telling people what they can believe or discuss does not get us to a better place.

If we're not allowed to discuss whether a young , super fit athlete, who already had Covid should not take the vaccine

when in 2 major countries (England and Germany) they have not told 17 year olds to take it, then something is wrong.

People aren't as dumb as you make them out too be. Old people are like 90% vaccinated in the US. It's because they can easily think about the tradeoffs of serious covid vs the vaccine. Young people, the calculus is not as clear cut, but saying you can't even talk about this does not lead to more people taking it. I think it could lead to probably more people not taking it.

Scenario 1: Take this pill. It's good for you, it's safe, and will protect you, you're not allowed to question me.

Person who would take pill has heard stories of people having reactions to pill and others who have taken pill still dying from what it will protect them from

Vs

Scenario 2: We strongly suggest you take this pill. Yes there are some complications with it, but they are usually mild... and the benefits to it way outweigh the potential side effects.

Person to take pill: "Yes I heard of someone who ended in the hospital because of it."

Doctor: "Yes, but that is extremely rare. At your age (and explain the facts)"

I think Scenario 2 leads to more people taking the pill

HEY DONT YOU HAVE A KID TO RAISE!?!?

wejo wrote:

Even take the J&J vaccine. When it was approved it didn't mean it was perfectly safe. It meant the experts thought it was better to take it than not. Then there were some serious concerns and they paused it to re-examine They then came back and said "it's still worth taking." Should people not have been allowed to discuss any of this along the way?

Telling people what they can believe or discuss does not get us to a better place.

The J&J vaccination pause and analysis was on the front page of every newspaper. How can you say there was no discussion?

Basically everything you want is already happening. There is widepsread discussion about the risks and benefits of vaccination everywhere!

The problem you have, it seems, is that you don't agree with the results of the calculus.

If you have a debate with someone, they say "you're wrong here evidence why" and you can't come up with a counter argument, that's not "being told what to think" or "silencing debate," that means your side of the argument is unsupported.

Wow all these risk of vaccination being ignored and we are being pushed a monolithic message of acceptance!!!!11

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/myocarditis.html

Why do emergency doctors act as if they were scientists and would understand it. Medical Doctors write a thesis in half a year that is on the level of a bachelor thesis. They are not phd scientists

Recap the history of how we got to this thread:

1) Rojo feels people are unfairly criticizing Cole Hocker's decision to not get vaccinated

2) Rojo writes article that has the headline "If We Follow The Science We Wouldn’t Be Encouraging Olympic Track Stars Like Cole Hocker To Be Vaccinated."

3) Article contains statement "Those stats prove that it’s actually quite selfish and anti-scientific for people to be demanding that people like Cole Hocker be vaccinated right now."

4) Articles two main/leading arguments are:

a) "Why? There are HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of senior citizens across the globe who have yet to be vaccinated."

b) "The reality is, an American under the age of 30 like Cole Hocker is nearly three times as likely to die in a car

accident as he is to die of COVID-19."

5) Revises article to say "allowing" instead of "encouraging". Article continues to contain the statement "Those stats prove that it’s actually quite selfish and anti-scientific for people to be demanding that people like Cole Hocker be vaccinated right now."

6) Article posted by reader in thread about myocarditis

7) Starts new thread about myocarditis

Except you have to multiply that by the percent chance of actually getting covid. Then multiply that by the percent of the 21 were not overweight and were perfectly healthy before getting covid. That ends up being a small number.

Wejo I agree but the problem is that the original article was trying to address a question on whether Cole Hocker should have gotten vaccinated but went down a completely different path; focusing on global vaccine distribution and the risk of a somebody under 30 dying from a car crash in this country.

Strawman. Who is saying you aren’t allowed to discuss it? Stop watching so much Tucker Carlson. The problem isn’t discussing it, the problem is using bad faith arguments or bad data to prove some point that isn’t actually true.

Great then let’s have an honest discussion and not bad faith arguments

How do you know this isn’t happening? And if scenario 2 is so appealing to you, then why haven’t you or Rojo engaged in this time of discussion AT ALL

Precisely. Ask a doctor with hands on experience treating Covid how many patients they’ve had who were in shape.

Covid is simply exposing the dire lack of physical conditioning in Westerners. And that’s before you consider the huge number of obese people with metabolic syndrome. This isn’t conspiracy nonsense, the WHO haven’t exactly been quiet about it.

It’s really beyond belief how much healthy people have had to sacrifice for the unhealthy having listened to ‘my weight is none of your business’ for the past 15 years (despite the fact that type 2 diabetes costs the NHS - I.e. the tax payer - (and it’ll be on your insurance premiums in the US) £2.5 in direct costs, and £10.5B in indirect costs per year).

healterseltzer wrote:

https://twitter.com/DrPeterMoloney/status/1410355177886978049

1:45 mark. Mad Cow Disease pandemic incoming?

wejo wrote:

I agree with this sentiment. If you tell people "everything is fine, here is what you have to believe, there are no issues with the XYZ, you are not allowed to discuss it, just take it", I don't think it leads to more people taking it

Discussion yes. Posting suppositions which can be researched and eliminated with about 30 secs of internet research shouldn't be lending itself to any discussion.

Rojo doesn't seem to understand much at all or is intentionally obtuse to act as clickbait and this subject seems to fall right in line.