Josette Norris vs Katir & Houlihan

+1

OP, How about putting some dates and times?

SH - Already banned for doping violation. Non-sequitur.

Katir - Can a clean athlete can have such an amazing progression? The crazy jumps in the 1500m and the 5000m should tell you that something isn't right. Note that these are not jumps from mediocre to decent, but from mediocre to Olympic gold medal contender. 3:37 is a nobody, but 3:28??? Also, 1 full minute in the 5000m in a couple of years? Of all the thousands of D1 athletes who run 13:50? Who have you seen make such an incredible leap?

Come on, don't be naive.

800m

2019 1:51.84 Madrid (ESP) 12 MAY 2019

2014 1:59.21 Cartagena (ESP) 16 APR 2014

1500m

2021 3:28.76 Stade Louis II, Monaco (MON) 09 JUL 2021

2020 3:36.59 Castellón (ESP) 24 AUG 2020

2019 3:37.20 Castellón (ESP) 23 JUL 2019

2018 3:40.84 Castellón (ESP) 26 JUN 2018

2017 3:52.79 Lorca (ESP) 28 MAY 2017

5000m

2021 12:50.79 Stadio Luigi Ridolfi, Firenze (ITA) 10 JUN 2021

2018 13:50.19 Huelva (ESP) 08 JUN 2018

10000m

2020 28:58 Madrid (ESP) 31 DEC 2020

2019 29:51 Crevillente (ESP) 31 DEC 2019

Yes Casual Obsever is correct. Epstein has an antiquated view of Nandrolone. When it became the drug that busted people the thought was oh how stupid are these dopers it is implausible they'd be taking this. It should have evolved to --> when you're breaking the rules with illegal substances, mistakes happen in what you are taking occasionally and it could have trace amounts of Nandrolone.

Now on to Norris. Definitely raises some red flags. The 5k results are also crazy. 16min hobbyjogger to 14:51??? AND shaving 15s off your 1500m mark in one year? This again seems to leap from B-class athlete to Olympic level in one year. Not believable in the least.

1500m

2021 3:59.72 Trabucco Hills HS, Mission Viejo, CA (USA) 18 JUL 2021

2020 4:15.83 Lipscomb Academy, Nashville, TN (USA) 15 AUG 2020

2019 4:10.82 Princeton, NJ (USA) 30 JUN 2019

2017 4:28.66 Philadelphia, PA (USA) 16 JUN 2017

2016 4:23.95 Charlottesville, VA (USA) 23 APR 2016

2015 4:27.45 Charlottesville, VA (USA) 18 APR 2015

5000m

2021 14:51.42 Irvine, CA (USA) 15 MAY 2021

2020 15:57.77 Newton North HS, Newton, MA (USA) 07 SEP 2020

2019 15:29.34 Azusa, CA (USA) 09 JUL 2019

2018 16:46.52 Palo Alto, CA (USA) 30 MAR 2018

2016 16:21.19 Walnut, CA (USA) 15 APR 2016

[quote]Iron Bars wrote:

Now on to Norris. Definitely raises some red flags. The 5k results are also crazy. 16min hobbyjogger to 14:51??? AND shaving 15s off your 1500m mark in one year? This again seems to leap from B-class athlete to Olympic level in one year. Not believable in the least

BOOM.

Exactly. Too obvious

I'm not speculating either way but just a note:

Her celebration and post-race stuff is very resemblant of Katir's. They both finish with a ton of joy in their races, right after digging deep for their kicks. I think this has nothing to do with doping, but it's kinda funny as they are two of the most expressive/emotional runners I've seen after a breakthrough race. And they're being compared in this thread.

Iron Bars wrote:

Come on, don't be naive.

Hmm

He was micro-dosing all the COVID period.

Figure he is the only Spanish runner micro-dosing having done such a huge jump in three months.

He was also using PEGASUS secret program to secure his transactions.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I'm not speculating either way but just a note:

Her celebration and post-race stuff is very resemblant of Katir's. They both finish with a ton of joy in their races, right after digging deep for their kicks. I think this has nothing to do with doping, but it's kinda funny as they are two of the most expressive/emotional runners I've seen after a breakthrough race. And they're being compared in this thread.

Everyone is joyful when they win a race. Says nothing. Part of the act

Again, I think it has nothing to do with doping (or not) and more to do with whether you're introverted, extroverted, whatever. But Katir and Norris go crazy after their races in a way Shelby did not.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

Again, I think it has nothing to do with doping (or not) and more to do with whether you're introverted, extroverted, whatever. But Katir and Norris go crazy after their races in a way Shelby did not.

Different personalities. Period. Like Centro’s or Sha Carri’s flamboyance and emotions vs Coburn and Felix’s reserved attitude. None is a direct indicator of doping. Ridiculous time drops are

Norris ran 4:10.82 in 2019. 5 seconds per year in her mid 20s to a level 9 seconds off the.WR is normal. Quit lumping her in with two obvious dopers from a.level above her.

I

This thread is a great microcosm of Let's Run. Some posters calling me a coward for not condemning her, others tell me to quit lumping her in with obvious dopers. This is fair though - so I did a broader comparison - (see next post).

Some people have pointed out the unfairness of comparing to Houlihan given her recent conviction, and to Katir given the chatter around him. Fair enough, so here is Norris' PRs aged 19 through 25 compared to all North American women who have broken 4 in the last decade 19-25 or until they broke 4. Apologies if I got birthdays wrong so got performances before/after a birthday wrong. All times per World Athletics.

Immediate takes - had forgotten how massive Jenny Simpson's breakthrough was. Also RE: GDS, the common narrative is that she came out of nowhere, but compared to the other women on this list, if you had to bet on any of these women at 21 to break 4 she would have been the favorite. Especially given her interviews saying her mileage maxed out at 40mpw in college. I'd also forgotten how many kicks at the can Rowbury needed to break 4.

Norris

19 04:27.45

20 04:23.95

21 04:28.66

22 04:10.82

23 --

24 04:15.83

25 03:59.72

DeBues-Stafford

19 04:07.44

20 04:06.53

21 04:03.55

22 04:05.83

23 03:59.56

Houlihan

19 04:22.95

20 04:13.64

21 04:10.89

22 04:09.62

23 04:03.39

24 04:06.22

25 03:57.34

Purrier St-Pierre

19 -

20 04:18.59

21 04:33.32

22 04:14.48

23 04:07.79

24 04:02.34

25 04:00.77

Rowbury

19 04:17.41

20 04:14.81

21 04:12.31

22 -

23 04:00.33

24 04:00.81

25 04:01.30

Simpson

19 04:32.17

20 04:21.53

21 04:11.36

22 03:59.90

If follow Josette at all, you’ll know she has struggled with injury all throughout college. 2019, her fifth when she placed 4th at NCAAs, was the first time she was finally able the break her high school pr of 4:40 again.

She is finally able to have consistent training for a few years injury free, so I’m not surprised her times have jumped. Especially since there wasn’t a ton of racing for her in 2020 (but we got a hint of her breakthrough in that awesome 3k in Boston!). She has been building up to this for the latter of two years and finally has the chance to show off her fitness, slowly cracking down her prs throughout the last few months.

Chill y’all.

^This. Chronically injured through her college years to finally a fully healthy year+ block of training. Not surprising, and watch where her times go for the next couple of years if she continues to stay injury-free.

follow the sport wrote:

^This. Chronically injured through her college years to finally a fully healthy year+ block of training. Not surprising, and watch where her times go for the next couple of years if she continues to stay injury-free.

Nope. Don’t buy that story. She’s on her way to make burrito excuses

^ This ^

Completely agree and so do many from what I’ve heard

Robby would never associate with a doper. Nothing swirling around Vig or Fox.

I mean she’s already running 3:59…if she improves much more to say 3:54-55 she’s one of the greats of all time. Wait til the suspicious then if you think this is bad.