Increase velocity at VO2max (vVO2max)

5k runner wrote:

Hi there,

how much can the VO2max be trained? Do you think there a genetic limit?

Which training do you use to increase your velocity at VO2max (vVO2max)? Do you have one training methode which works well for you? Or do you think its hardly trainable?

Best

5k runner

The possible individual highest O2max is already given by birth with the genes. To reach it is a concept of the 3 main factors in middle/ longdistance running together.So, it`s of course not possible to reach it with just maxVO2 paced training ( it`s enough with 5k race pace). The maxVO2 interval reps contribute to raise the O2max to its highest but mainly improve the energy efficiency at that pace . E.g 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is a very good VO2max workout for this purpose.In contrary to what some believe this training should be done frequently ( mostly once a week) and it`s a misconception by many that this kind of training would lead to a plateau and not the desired enough stimuli for significant improvement.

- Magic Summer -

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

The possible individual highest O2max is already given by birth with the genes. To reach it is a concept of the 3 main factors in middle/ longdistance running together.So, it`s of course not possible to reach it with just maxVO2 paced training ( it`s enough with 5k race pace). The maxVO2 interval reps contribute to raise the O2max to its highest but mainly improve the energy efficiency at that pace . E.g 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace is a very good VO2max workout for this purpose.In contrary to what some believe this training should be done frequently ( mostly once a week) and it`s a misconception by many that this kind of training would lead to a plateau and not the desired enough stimuli for significant improvement.

- Magic Summer -

I think the correct explanation is a little bit different.

First, you need to increase the amount and size of mitochondira (and other things ...) -> easy pace below around 2mmol is best.

Second, high intensity increases the stroke volume (SV) of the heart, a main faktor for VO2max. Heart can be seen as a muscle which will be trained.

So basically you need both, easy and hard pace in the right proportion.

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

Jack Daniels takes the hardline (in his definition of "intervals") that one must train under the conditions of maximum oxygen uptake, in order to improve one's maximum oxygen uptake. That consequently implies intervals are run where one's heart rate eventually reaches 100% (or close to) maximum heart rate. For a 1k repetition, this would typically amount to running them at ~3k pace. However, some make the case that oxygen uptake can be improved by running intervals a bit slower than that.

In the interest of being accurate, really fast runners (sub 14min 5k) would be running the 1k repetitions at 5k pace:

Such intervals are VERY HARD (per Jack Daniels and personal experience). I won't pretend to know how much of debate there is in elite running circles as to the necessity of running intervals that hard, and how often, for the purposes of maximizing 'bang-for-buck' training to improve one's oxygen uptake. (I'm primarily referring to training for the 5k and lower.) There are trade-off considerations in the decision (e.g., injury risk and recovery requirements). Obviously, the extrinsic motivations for runners at the top of the sport are worlds-apart from someone at my mediocre level (besides my age being another consideration).

And to follow-up this point, in has been repeatedly reported in the scientific literature, both for the untrained and for moderately trained athletes, that one's VO2max can be improved by running interval reps (e.g., 4 min in duration) topping out at 90-95% HRmax, which would be 5k pace and even slower (but above the LT2 anaerobic threshold) for slower runners. So their is improvement in doing so, up to a point.

What recovery would you take with 20x400m at 5k pace?

Easy walking back to 120 bpm ( or roughly 60 % of your max heart rate). This way the rest time

after every rep is individually perfect and gives "automatically" the optimal rest needed after every rep. The pressure increase after every rep at same speed and therefore more rest is needed in the end of the workout. It`s like the great Carlos Lopes once stated a very logical way of handle the rest period when running intervals.

Jill Montgomery is great! wrote:

Jill MF Montgomery!

And beautiful also ....

Thank you so far, for all answers. I try to summarize a little bit:

Interval duration can be from 400m to 1200m.

Pace, is between 5k and mile pace. As longer the interval as slower, the pace is.

For the rest time, we have different approaches here from 90sec to a longer rest time of <60% HFmax. In my opinion a shorter rest time is better.

Not mentioned so far is the 30sec on /30sec off interval.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Cavorty wrote:

What recovery would you take with 20x400m at 5k pace?

Easy walking back to 120 bpm ( or roughly 60 % of your max heart rate). This way the rest time

after every rep is individually perfect and gives "automatically" the optimal rest needed after every rep. The pressure increase after every rep at same speed and therefore more rest is needed in the end of the workout. It`s like the great Carlos Lopes once stated a very logical way of handle the rest period when running intervals.

Doesn't this give a very long interval? I'm 64 years old with a max HR of 165, so I'd be recovering down to 99 HR.

If you are running slowly (5k pace) and recovering completely, where is the stress other than muscular fatigue.

I would do 1000m repeats at 5k pace with only 90 sec recovery, and in that case recovery at the end of HR is higher each time (presumably oxygen debt is not totally repaid).

Yes, JS is an ignorant coach.

SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

Cavorty wrote:

What recovery would you take with 20x400m at 5k pace?

Easy walking back to 120 bpm ( or roughly 60 % of your max heart rate). This way the rest time

after every rep is individually perfect and gives "automatically" the optimal rest needed after every rep. The pressure increase after every rep at same speed and therefore more rest is needed in the end of the workout. It`s like the great Carlos Lopes once stated a very logical way of handle the rest period when running intervals.

You lying idiot, Carlos Lopes never said that.

Why are you lying about this again, you stupid scammer?

His coaching system is known for leading athletes first to a short peak (because it's like tapering), followed by stagnation and then worse results.

And he is lying about Lopes.

Cavorty wrote:

What recovery would you take with 20x400m at 5k pace?

Hey Cavorty, over on the 'workout thread', I just posted up a 20x400m session of less intense 'Aerobic Quarters' (in the vein of Woldemar Gerschler, and Zatopek's and Jim Ryun's monster 40x400m sessions.)

These were run at roughly threshold pace; nonetheless, my Garmin says the session's Primary Benefit was impacting VO2max (the subject of this thread, 😊 .)

Feel free to post up workouts over there!

Jack Daniels Calculator wrote:

Cavorty wrote:

What recovery would you take with 20x400m at 5k pace?

Hey Cavorty, over on the 'workout thread', I just posted up a 20x400m session of less intense 'Aerobic Quarters' (in the vein of Woldemar Gerschler, and Zatopek's and Jim Ryun's monster 40x400m sessions.)

https://ibb.co/S542xY7

These were run at roughly threshold pace; nonetheless, my Garmin says the session's Primary Benefit was impacting VO2max (the subject of this thread, 😊 .)

https://ibb.co/KsnfYnm

Feel free to post up workouts over there!

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10621080

Thanks for that. Those percentages would make a lot more sense to me - that would be 144 max and 115 recovery for me. Usually if I do 5x1000m at 5k pace, I'd be around mid 140s when I finish the early ones, and on the early ones I'm down to under 110 with 200m - 90 sec recovery. Usually hit 150 on the last one, recovery would be about 120 on start of last one.

Of course, I'd have to think about how much increase in V02 max (or resisting decrease at this age - Garmin has me at 61), but I can see the benefit of being able to do a good volume of work on both biomechanical and (one hopes) metabolic efficiency at 5k race pace.