Gudaf Tsegay 29:39 (#5 all-time) in 10,000 debut in Portugal

runderun wrote:

An athlete who is global medal class at every distance between 800m and 10000m is crazy. I can't see how it is possible, the training to be that level is so different

A curious absence of "specificity" - the focusing on individual events - which has been argued on another thread as key to modern training.

Her range is modest. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes to extend from the 100m to the marathon.

runderun wrote:

Sure, Hassan is just as crazy. It may be a coincidence that we have two ridiculous multi-distance talents at the same time but you can't blame people for being suspicious. Without question the shoes are playing a role and I think 15 seconds is very conservative.

But we know that if they are doping it won't be helping them. Elites don't get better from doping. We have it on the authority of Canova and rekrunner.

kddtk wrote:

of course wrote:

I'm personally pro implementing a 3 strike rule for agents. You have three athletes banned? You get banned. Start making financial incentives for agents to keep their athletes clean. Right now as an agent if your athlete tests positive/missed three tests it doesn't mean jack since you've already pocketed your cut of the prize money.

How could that be implemented if agents are often thousands of miles away from the athletes?

Uhhh, what does distance have to do with this? The point is that agents won't rep athletes they don't trust/can't get to follow rules. You have an athlete constantly dropping the ball on their whereabouts info - agents are gonna get antsy and drop em. Your athlete says "oh hey I'm gonna go train with Jama Aden" agent also gets nervous.

You don't need the agent looking over their shoulder, you need agents with skin in the game. It's that there are agents out there with 3+ athletes dinged who continue to pick up and rep guys n gals who are suspicious. If I as an agent suffer no consequence from having a doped athlete, why would I stop putting sketchy athletes in meets/races earning *me* prize money that *I* don't have to return.

Portland 3 striper wrote:

of course wrote:

Same agent as Genzebe Dibaba and Salwa Eid Naser for those curious.

...and possibly Tsegu (busted)

...and Abraham Kiptum (busted after 1/2 WR)

...and Fsiha (busted after Euro xc champ win)

...and Soulieman (former Aden athlete)

...and Mikhou (busted 1500m runner- unsure if represented by Pineda before or after bust)

...and Matthew Kisorio (busted post 58:46)

Why does no one see this?

🤡 🤡 🤡

It's a fact that the agents, normally, are not able to control the individual action of theirm athletes. It's not like in Team activity, when all the components of the team are together in the same place, there are doctors controlling and advicing them, and the Clubs can be responsible for the individual actions of their members, sometimes.

So, I don't think a right solution to ban agents having doped athletes : in my opinion, there is something better.

Managers/agents work with the athletes for producing good performances, but with the final goal to earn money. This money comes from contracts with the Companies, from prizes in the races and from appearances.

Many managements refuse to agree with athletes already doped, others instead don't care, and accept in their management athletes banned for cheating in the previous years. Who refuses doesn't agree to work with previous cheaters, in spite to lose money ; who agrees, looks for money only, and doesn't care about moral values.

So, my proposal is to give penalties to the agents who have athletes doped under their management, charging them with different and growing fines, everytime they have another athlete banned.

For example, 5000 USD for the first doped athlete, 6000 for the second, 7000 for the third, and so on.

In this way, the managers connected with doped athletes have to spend more money than how much can earn from the athletes themselves, and probably can organize more control, needing to be more sure about the cleanness of their athletes.

Penalties must be about money, not about bans, and, with agents working for money only, this is the most important deterrent.

Armstronglivs, you think to be ironical when speaks about what I say, but are not able (or don't want) to refer to the LR posters what I always say,

I never said doping doesn't work with elite : I always said BLOOD DOPING DOESN'T WORK WITH TOP RUNNERS OF LONG DISTANCES IF THEY HAVE PROPER TRAINING WITH CONTINUITY IN ALTITUDE.

This is something totaly different. I can't deny that steroids can give advantages roducing results not possible to achieve with training only. I can't deny that there are substances able to increase attention and coordination. I can't deny there are pharma able to reduce the effects of fatigue, in this case ONLY repalcing the effects of proper training.

And I never denied all this. If you forget what I wrote a lot of time, since you are not stupid but only presumptuous and arrogant, you are not correct, a become a liar (the best way for being a liar is to say a part only of the truth).

The fact is that all the doping believers, including the scientists in other posts mentioned by Casual Observer (Schumacher, Parisotto, etc...), don't have any clue about the results that CLEAN athletes can achieve (of course, depending on their talent), and this is the reason because they go outside with the ridiculous statements of 1 min of advantage in 10000m, 30" in 5000m and 4 min in Marathon.

Same thing about the advantage for the "cheating" shoes.

About what is possible to achieve in clean way, if I have the clear example of WR holders like Shaheen (7'53"63), Mosop (1h26'47" in 30000m) and of a lot of other athletes inside top 20 all time in every distance (from 1500m in 3'27" for Silas Kiplagat and 3'28" for Ronald Kwemoi, to 9 athletes between 12'48" and 13' in 5000m, from 8 athletes from 26'30" of Nicholas Kemboi till 26'55" of Geoffrey Kirui, till more than 15 athletes under 1 hour in HM with two of them European, for finishing with a lot of marathon runners between 2:03'06" and 2:06') who achieved their results WITH TRAINING ONLY, how can I accept the idea of big advantages in case of blood manipulations ?

About shoes, how can I accept the idea of minutes of advantages, when in 2012 I had an athlete of good but not excellent talent, Jonathan Maiyo, who run 5 HM between 59'02" and 59'27", and a marathon in 2h04'56", wearing shoes Mizuno without any carbon-plate and with a thickness of 20mm ?

How can I accept the idea that, raising Hct over the best physiological individual level, automatically the athletes can have a lot of advantage, when Gelindo Bordin won Olympics in 1988 with 12,9 Hb and 39.7 Hct, and Christopher Koskei in 1999 (the only Gold medal for Kenya, one year after running 8'48" in 1998) continued to decrease in his blood values, every time his shape became better, till winning WCh in Seville ?

How can I accept a DIRECT relation between Hb / Hct and performance, when a German athlete who is also a Doctor, Arne Gabius, in more than 25 blood tests (including several of them made from WADA and IAAF in order to build his Biological Passport), had a ridiculous fluctuation of 1.2 points of Hct (41.1 - 42.3) and there was not possible to find any connection with the level of shape (the values were the same when he was in top shape, 13'13" in 5000m or 2h08'33" in Marathon some year later, or when was totally out of shape or injured) ?

So, when I speak I look at REAL FACTS : the performances of the athletes, their blood values, and their training.

Yes, I don't have any experience about doping : I always refused the idea, for me it's something disgusting. But, tell me, which experience your scientists have about training, and the level that is possible to reach in clean way ? Which experience have you ?

I well know there are top athletes doped. But for you this is the "thesis" : TOP ATHLETES MUST BE DOPED, like this must be a fact. UInstead, for me the thesis is that IS POSSIBLE TO BEAT A WR WITH TRAINING ONLY.

If you look at my thesis (thesis must be a fact, otherwise is not thesis, but hypothesis), the only thing you can say as "hypothesis" is : GIVING THE FACT THAT IS POSSIBLE IN MIDDLE AND LONG DISTANCES TO BE THE BET OF THE WORLD IN CLEAN WAY (thesis), IS IT POSSIBLE TO FURTHER INCREASE THEIR PERFORMANCES WITH BLOOD MANIPULATION (hypothesis) ?

I don't have a precise and scientific answer, but I know that my idea (no advantage) is very much more correct that the hypothesis (passed off as "thesis") of minutes of advantages in the performances, for top athletes (I repeat, training in proper way, that is not like in Lydiard's era, living for long time in altitude), written by these pseudo-scientists who are part of the problem and not the solution.

Okay, I don't hate this. My idea was to try make them have skin in the game and your suggestion totally does that and also gets around the issue of one agent getting banned and just having a colleague take over a dirty stable so to speak.

A sliding scale also would mean an ethical agent who gets unlucky doesn't take a big hit but a predatory one eventually gets priced out of the sport.

Les wrote:

Same pattern as Dibaba. Train in remote areas hard for testers to reach. Put up fantastic times indoors and early outdoors. During the outdoor season they stop doping because they are racing and being tested regularly and consequently lose effectiveness throughout the outdoor season.

Sorry, not seeing any correlation between Dibaba and Tsegay besides the fact that they are both Ethiopian and good at running. Tsegay trains in Addis Ababa, not exactly remote being the biggest city and capital of Ethiopia. Tsegay is also generally pretty consistently racing at Diamond League/top indoor meets. Dibaba's racing schedule was pretty mind-bogglingly weird in recent years. She was coached by Jama Aden, which is a monstrous red flag. Tsegay also got bronze in Doha, so clearly she didn't lose much "effectiveness" in 2019. She might be doping for all I know, but besides her agent it's her fast running times and not really much else that would point that way.

Coevett wrote:

Portland 3 striper wrote:

Her agent is juan pineda.

Be careful, whenever I make a post about that scumbag the mods delete it. They have his back.

Can you please do some posts about Asterix? You seem to be some expert here as well as on almost any other subject.

I don't know about doping and don't care about the shoes. She looked like she was doing a tempo workout in terms of effort. Beautiful form

Renato Canova wrote:

Yes, I don't have any experience about doping : I always refused the idea, for me it's something disgusting. But, tell me, which experience your scientists have about training, and the level that is possible to reach in clean way ? Which experience have you ?

Love Renato's posts, who like not too many here, has actually SKIN IN THE GAME in what he talks about.