BYU men PREPOSTEROUS 1500 in Fresno

th3r wrote:

The BYU guys that went on a mission get a two year deferral of eligibility due to not training while on the mission. Largest average age difference would be 2-yrs if everyone when on a mission which not all do. You really like to stretch things and compare the max age a BYU senior runner might be with what a middle age non-LDS runners might be at another school. Not a very honest comparison. Byu athletes get the exact same number of years of eligibility as other schools but some of that eligibility can be deferred if they served a mission.

Added year they graduated from high school:

2017 - 3 Clinger, Casey FR-1 BYU 3:36.97@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 5 Bons, Lucas FR-1 BYU 3:37.21@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2013 - 6 Franco, Talem SR-4 BYU 3:37.55 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2015 - 10 Mantz, Conner JR-3 BYU 3:37.96 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2018 - 23 Troutner, Aidan FR-1 BYU 3:39.43@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2015 - 76 Armstrong, Elijah JR-3 BYU 3:43.11@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2020 - 92 Allred, Easton FR-1 BYU 3:43.70@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 98 Garnica, Brandon JR-3 BYU 3:43.91@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

It is amazing how well Bons, and Troutner are running since they missed two years of running after High School to serve a mission. Allred has delt with a lot of physical problems lately and is running really well considering that.

xczvzxcv wrote:

th3r wrote:

The BYU guys that went on a mission get a two year deferral of eligibility due to not training while on the mission. Largest average age difference would be 2-yrs if everyone when on a mission which not all do. You really like to stretch things and compare the max age a BYU senior runner might be with what a middle age non-LDS runners might be at another school. Not a very honest comparison. Byu athletes get the exact same number of years of eligibility as other schools but some of that eligibility can be deferred if they served a mission.

Added year they graduated from high school:

2017 - 3 Clinger, Casey FR-1 BYU 3:36.97@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 5 Bons, Lucas FR-1 BYU 3:37.21@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2013 - 6 Franco, Talem SR-4 BYU 3:37.55 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2015 - 10 Mantz, Conner JR-3 BYU 3:37.96 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2018 - 23 Troutner, Aidan FR-1 BYU 3:39.43@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2015 - 76 Armstrong, Elijah JR-3 BYU 3:43.11@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2020 - 92 Allred, Easton FR-1 BYU 3:43.70@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 98 Garnica, Brandon JR-3 BYU 3:43.91@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

It is amazing how well Bons, and Troutner are running since they missed two years of running after High School to serve a mission. Allred has delt with a lot of physical problems lately and is running really well considering that.

They're doing great but this is ludicrous, Clinger four years out of high school competing as a freshman in track!! Franco 8 years out of high school competing as a senior! Mantz a junior six years out of high school. Troutner three years out of high school. Armstrong a junior six years out of high school. Allred and Garnica are the only ones there who are the right age (Allred coming back from major health issues) and they're not surprisingly at the back of that pack. Age matters.

No other schools get to have their freshman compete at 21.

xczvzxcv wrote:

th3r wrote:

The BYU guys that went on a mission get a two year deferral of eligibility due to not training while on the mission. Largest average age difference would be 2-yrs if everyone when on a mission which not all do. You really like to stretch things and compare the max age a BYU senior runner might be with what a middle age non-LDS runners might be at another school. Not a very honest comparison. Byu athletes get the exact same number of years of eligibility as other schools but some of that eligibility can be deferred if they served a mission.

Added year they graduated from high school:

2017 - 3 Clinger, Casey FR-1 BYU 3:36.97@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 5 Bons, Lucas FR-1 BYU 3:37.21@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2013 - 6 Franco, Talem SR-4 BYU 3:37.55 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2015 - 10 Mantz, Conner JR-3 BYU 3:37.96 Fresno St. West Coast Relays Apr 30, 2021

2018 - 23 Troutner, Aidan FR-1 BYU 3:39.43@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2015 - 76 Armstrong, Elijah JR-3 BYU 3:43.11@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2020 - 92 Allred, Easton FR-1 BYU 3:43.70@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

2018 - 98 Garnica, Brandon JR-3 BYU 3:43.91@(1) 2021 BYU Robison Invitational Apr 21, 2021

It is amazing how well Bons, and Troutner are running since they missed two years of running after High School to serve a mission. Allred has delt with a lot of physical problems lately and is running really well considering that.

They're doing great but this is ludicrous, Clinger four years out of high school competing as a freshman in track!! Franco 8 years out of high school competing as a senior! Mantz a junior six years out of high school. Troutner three years out of high school. Armstrong a junior six years out of high school. Allred and Garnica are the only ones there who are the right age (Allred coming back from major health issues) and they're not surprisingly at the back of that pack. Age matters.

No other schools get to have their freshman compete at 21.

get out and travel wrote:

xczvzxcv wrote:

They're doing great but this is ludicrous, Clinger four years out of high school competing as a freshman in track!! Franco 8 years out of high school competing as a senior! Mantz a junior six years out of high school. Troutner three years out of high school. Armstrong a junior six years out of high school. Allred and Garnica are the only ones there who are the right age (Allred coming back from major health issues) and they're not surprisingly at the back of that pack. Age matters.

No other schools get to have their freshman compete at 21.

The most outlandish thing is that even the "seniors" will be there at least one more year. They leave high school older than normal, get to rest and recover for two years on a little "mission," take a redshirt year, take a medical redshirt year, take a Covid year and get the four years that are allowed the non-age cheaters. Plus the fact that there is less than zero academic pressure at byu so it is training full time. Eight years to complete four and they are old when they start it all. What is perplexing is why someone would want to spend an extra six years with no income - even the meager income that comes with a "degree" from that "university."

fxhjb wrote:

GreatDane wrote:

It's a tough call with the shoe technology. Say hypothetically you had an athlete in the year 2000 with the best shoes they had then transport back to the 1950s and race against athletes in the shoes they had then. You'd have to say that was shoe PED too. If every top athlete now has access to the same shoes they all have the same advantage so it's a level playing field. It is obviously going to make current world records easier to break but that's always been the case in sport. As technology improves and athletes also have access to better nutrition, training etc it's inevitable. It's just that the latest technology has taken quite a leap over a short period of time compared to the past evolution of shoes.

Uh, no. The only advantage shoes from the 2000s had from shoes in the 50s is that they were lighter and (probably) more comfortable. Up until now shoes were always looked at as a performance hinderer. How much would a pair of shoes hinder the performance. Over the years it would be less and less as they became lighter and lighter. Would a pair of spikes from the 50s hinder performance more than spikes from the 2000s. Probably, but I doubt a 3:55 miler would run 3:50 just from switching to the newer spikes from 2000s. Fast forward to today - would a 3:55 miler become a 3:50 just from switching to the new Nike spikes? I’d have to say yes. It sounds ridiculous that you could take 5 seconds off an already incredibly mile time just by switching shoes, but that’s what’s happening.

It’s hard to determine this in the Oregon and BYU athletes because they’ve always been wearing Nike. But now I’m seeing schools not sponsored by Nike that are outfitting their athletes (well, the distance runners) with dragonfly’s and removing the swoosh. For indoor they were in a different brand so it’s more easy to compare. Their times have dropped instantly. Times that, by going back and looking what they ran during the indoor season, they shouldn’t be running. I would say the dragonfly is allowing mid to high 29 10k runner to take off ~30 seconds. This is unprecedented. Even if you traveled back in time to the 50s and gave a pair of 2000s spikes to a 29:30 10k runner they wouldn’t cut 30 seconds off their time. The new Nike shoes are the new PED. Take the two Oregon guys that recently ran 3:50 indoor. They are 7th and 8th ALL TIME. Faster than Scott, Spivey, Webb, Morceli, Elliott, etc. etc. etc. The most talented milers the world has ever seen who went their entire careers and never ran as fast as those two rookies did earlier this year. Did Oregon just win the talent jackpot and get the two most talented milers the world has ever seen? Hardly.

Sub-9 guy wrote:

yessirskiii wrote:

This reads very “I don’t have the spikes but I know they’re cheating.”

Look, they’re nice spikes. I like my pair and they’re definitely the best pair of spikes I’ve very worn, but they aren’t taking 5 seconds off per mile.

It’s probably anywhere from 1-3 seconds per mile.

You guys are missing the point here....they are spikes, they are SUPPOSED to make you faster. That’s the whole point of them. Nike did a good job.

You are deliberately missing the point. My running days are way in the rear view mirror, so I couldn’t care less. But, as a fan of the sport, yes, it bothers me.

You are also missing the fact that the trainers and spikes allow people to train harder and recover much faster. So when you add that component to the fact that the spikes themselves are lopping off time in races (the longer the race, the more time shaved).

The genuine runners have acknowledged that these shoes are major performance enhancers. You know, like epo?

GrapeSon wrote:

fxhjb wrote:

Uh, no. The only advantage shoes from the 2000s had from shoes in the 50s is that they were lighter and (probably) more comfortable. Up until now shoes were always looked at as a performance hinderer. How much would a pair of shoes hinder the performance. Over the years it would be less and less as they became lighter and lighter. Would a pair of spikes from the 50s hinder performance more than spikes from the 2000s. Probably, but I doubt a 3:55 miler would run 3:50 just from switching to the newer spikes from 2000s. Fast forward to today - would a 3:55 miler become a 3:50 just from switching to the new Nike spikes? I’d have to say yes. It sounds ridiculous that you could take 5 seconds off an already incredibly mile time just by switching shoes, but that’s what’s happening.

It’s hard to determine this in the Oregon and BYU athletes because they’ve always been wearing Nike. But now I’m seeing schools not sponsored by Nike that are outfitting their athletes (well, the distance runners) with dragonfly’s and removing the swoosh. For indoor they were in a different brand so it’s more easy to compare. Their times have dropped instantly. Times that, by going back and looking what they ran during the indoor season, they shouldn’t be running. I would say the dragonfly is allowing mid to high 29 10k runner to take off ~30 seconds. This is unprecedented. Even if you traveled back in time to the 50s and gave a pair of 2000s spikes to a 29:30 10k runner they wouldn’t cut 30 seconds off their time. The new Nike shoes are the new PED. Take the two Oregon guys that recently ran 3:50 indoor. They are 7th and 8th ALL TIME. Faster than Scott, Spivey, Webb, Morceli, Elliott, etc. etc. etc. The most talented milers the world has ever seen who went their entire careers and never ran as fast as those two rookies did earlier this year. Did Oregon just win the talent jackpot and get the two most talented milers the world has ever seen? Hardly.

No. Just no. Have you tried the Dragonflys? When's the last time you wore a pair of spikes? I have tried them and guess what? They're not revolutionary, you feel a bit less beat up in the calves but they're nothing like the Vaporflys. That's not 5 seconds in the mile at an already elite level. Bunch of keyboard warriors that haven't worn a spike in 20 years are talking like they know what's up.

That is what's ridiculous.