People forget she is a human being, and that she isn't a world beater right now. 4:14 for a frosh would be impressive for anyone else other than Tuohy. Either she's going to be world class or not. But right now she isn't, but for some reason everyone expects her to be.
But the BYU women are an impressive bunch regardless.
She was a high school phenom. And she’s having a solid freshman season despite coming off injury. I don’t see how BYU upperclassmen factor into this. It’s like if Hobbs Kessler ran a nice 3:38 a year from now and the thread title was the “bad news Oregon had 3 guys run 3:36”
Yes, similar but not quite as predictable for a woman to improve as it is for a man. More impressive for freshmen guys to be competitive like Nico Young is than it is for a female.
Car lights? Like how they had the headlights of the cars in Field of Dreams at the end? I loved that scene.
What is so strange about someone graduating HS in 2016 competing as a college senior in 2021? 2017=Freshman, 2018=Sophomore, 2019=Junior, 2020 season cancelled - extended year of eligibility, 2021=Senior. Where's the crazy redshirting?
The 2020 season cancellation essentially added a second red shirt year. In other sports such as wrestling redshirting freshman year and taking Olympic redshirt years are standard, so you do see a lot of 5th year seniors already.
Age gaps are already built into the equation with the different years of eligibility. And there is a definite developmental gap between runners in their teens and early 20s. Adds to challenge. And it adds perspective when a true freshman competes with upper classmen in distance running.
rojo wrote:
...and I want to remind you, you are talking about a real person.
👍👍👍
Big Timer wrote:
Yes, similar but not quite as predictable for a woman to improve as it is for a man. More impressive for freshmen guys to be competitive like Nico Young is than it is for a female.
There will always be a reason why it is "more impressive for guys...." always.
If Katelyn was running poorly she would be called a burnout and insulted and dismissed. If she was running super well, we'd say, well she's going to fall off the cliff eventually.... She's running well, showing she has range and room to improve, so we say, well the guys are STILL more impressive...
I think girls are always more impressive because of the amount of scrutiny they have to deal with is way more than the boys. And they still perform.
After NXN in 2019, Rojo put up a thread suggesting that Nico Young had more potential than Katelyn. Because even though Katelyn had just one her THIRD NXN title and said she felt a ton of pressure and ran poorly because of that, Nico won by 15 seconds for his first title. I just couldn't get over how ridiculous and stupid that was. How do you make any single prediction about a runner's career based on one race?
I'm not trying to hate on Nico, and wish him well, but come on. Y'all fawned over so many male prodigies over the years who amounted to nothing. German Fernandez, Lukas Verzbicas, AJ Acosta who had a whole "nation", even Alan Webb and Dathan Ritzenhein didn't live up to their vast potential. There is no telling that he's going to be spectacular. But when he or any guy receives the same scrutiny that a girl receives on here, they'll be a beach in Arizona.
I only pointed out guys because some were trying to cut down the BYU women for being older than Tuohy. It is a fact that the average guy improves more through college than the average woman.
Big Timer wrote:
Yes, similar but not quite as predictable for a woman to improve as it is for a man. More impressive for freshmen guys to be competitive like Nico Young is than it is for a female.
Maybe so, but we all know Katelyn's story. Nico is running great and has been on a crazy upward surge that started his senior year of HS. Katelyn had an up-and-down senior year of high school, a bad injury that went into college and so on. That she's primed now to run lifetime bests this season and already got AA in Cross Country is worth noting and being positive about. This is also not her best event (1500), so let's see what she can do in the 5,000 coming up. If Nico ran 3:41 do you think it would be caveated with how many upperclassmen Oregon/Ole Miss/BYU guys could smoke him?
Yes, if a group of 50 year old women endlessly gushed about it.
golden boy wrote:
I only pointed out guys because some were trying to cut down the BYU women for being older than Tuohy. It is a fact that the average guy improves more through college than the average woman.
Do you have any studies to back this up because I don't believe this is true at all. Guys burn out, quit, drink a ton, get slower, lose interest, and even have changes in their bodies that cause them to run slower. I'd like to see actual progression on college age men vs women, not just biased speculation.
How about just looking at Young and Tuohy? If Young improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, he will run 13:08 in college. If Tuohy improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, she will run 14:50 in college. Which is likely? You don't need studies to look at the data yourself. You can pick the top 25 American men and women in the NCAA 5k and compare their high school PRs and you will see that men improve about double the amount that women do.
Big Timer wrote:
How about just looking at Young and Tuohy? If Young improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, he will run 13:08 in college. If Tuohy improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, she will run 14:50 in college. Which is likely? You don't need studies to look at the data yourself. You can pick the top 25 American men and women in the NCAA 5k and compare their high school PRs and you will see that men improve about double the amount that women do.
Interesting, I would not have thought that. Just quickly looked at 3 BYU girls (Orton/Hoj/ Wayment) who have all improved by 30 seconds in the mile and a minute in the 2 mile or equivalent from HS. I have to believe it would be even more in a 5000. This is consistent with what a lot of folks say that the best women in college will not have been the best in HS.
In the USA there is an unhealthy focus on children's sport.
Never seen so many angry posters about kid's and your expectations.
Since KT is not racing guys it doesn't matter if they improve more, less, or the same amount as women in college.
perennial Oz snoozer wrote:
In the USA there is an unhealthy focus on children's* sport.
Never seen so many angry posters about kid's* and your expectations.
*adults
FastTuohy wrote:
Big Timer wrote:
How about just looking at Young and Tuohy? If Young improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, he will run 13:08 in college. If Tuohy improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, she will run 14:50 in college. Which is likely? You don't need studies to look at the data yourself. You can pick the top 25 American men and women in the NCAA 5k and compare their high school PRs and you will see that men improve about double the amount that women do.
Interesting, I would not have thought that. Just quickly looked at 3 BYU girls (Orton/Hoj/ Wayment) who have all improved by 30 seconds in the mile and a minute in the 2 mile or equivalent from HS. I have to believe it would be even more in a 5000. This is consistent with what a lot of folks say that the best women in college will not have been the best in HS.
BYU coaching is better than most colleges and it doesn’t take much research to see that.
FastTuohy wrote:
Big Timer wrote:
How about just looking at Young and Tuohy? If Young improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, he will run 13:08 in college. If Tuohy improves by 5% in the 5k from HS, she will run 14:50 in college. Which is likely? You don't need studies to look at the data yourself. You can pick the top 25 American men and women in the NCAA 5k and compare their high school PRs and you will see that men improve about double the amount that women do.
Interesting, I would not have thought that. Just quickly looked at 3 BYU girls (Orton/Hoj/ Wayment) who have all improved by 30 seconds in the mile and a minute in the 2 mile or equivalent from HS. I have to believe it would be even more in a 5000. This is consistent with what a lot of folks say that the best women in college will not have been the best in HS.
I don't know if it's the case with these girls, but i've read discussion that byu kids go into college with undervalued times because they get a lot of kids that run all of their high school races at altitude.
i honestly have no idea if there is any merit to this.
golden boy wrote:
It is called perspective.
Agreed! It's a dopy irrelevant perspective that's completely meaningless to the point of this thread. No one was suggesting that Katelyn Tuohy was currently a top-10 runner at the 1500. So the fact that one school is a Powerhouse and has several Runners faster than her is totally irrelevant and meaningless in this context
The discussion was rather about her improvements and where she's at currently.
You can do this about any young Runner. Nico Young, Cole Hocker, anyone. Nico young run a 1320 but there's a hundred other runners in the world better than him, or 200 or whatever. The point is it's a completely irrelevant in the context
No one cares that four girls from BYU who have all been in college for 5 years are faster than a freshman.