Disappointing 5k time trial during marathon training and questions on how to improve!

You are running your easy pace way too fast for your level.

Jack daniels vdot indicates that you should not run faster than 9:30 on 80% of your runs. Your easy pace for 5k 23 minutes is from 9:30 to 10:20.

I understand it s not fun to run that slow but you have to do it.

Run very fast during workouts and very slow the other days.

Nothing between tempos and very easy, you are far from your marathon.

Yes you should run your easy run slower.

Also I don’t know what percent of your run is at easy pace, but it should be around at least 80%.

It’s not intuitive, but getting fast is not all about hammering it with fast workouts, but more about give your body enough stimulation WITHOUT a lot of stress, so that when you are not running, the rest and recovery will do the wonder.

Change your mindset no not feel fulfilled with tiredness when you run a “good run” (one that stress up your body), but feel fulfilled on how fresh you feel after your easy run.

Check out 2 types of runners thread.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989

TLDR: If you’re more an ST runner, working on 5k might be the best thing to happen to your marathon. If you’re more FT, you can overdo it, to the detriment of the marathon specific work (though as has been noted, you have a pretty long runway till the race).

Thank you!

Going into this block I felt 9:20 EZ (just breathing through my nose) would be slow enough and I could do base work with that pace. Sometimes I'll start off with a shuffle and settle into a faster pace (8:30-8:40) or so.

I'm more of a slow-twitch runner.

I also wonder if being short affects my cadence/speed. I have a normal body but short legs.

Yeah, looking back on it, that's fair and probably a dumb idea.

Someone upthread said I got a side stitch due to dehydration?

I've never had that really happen, only once during the 2017 Cbus Half at the very end, and on some occasional training runs when I'm just starting to run after a long layoff.

jecht wrote:

I'm more of a slow-twitch runner.

I also wonder if being short affects my cadence/speed. I have a normal body but short legs.

I don't think so. Running is being airborne as much as possible so as long as you can develop quick and efficient power in each step you are good. The fast runners come in both tall and short shapes.

It affects cadence a lot. Tall runners have low cadence and short runners high. Both can run efficiently and fast

Awesome, thank you.

I'll have to also work on my hydration a bit more, and drink even more before the runs (a day or so more than usual).

Your mile splits suggest endurance is the issue. My advice would be consistency.. do everything easy but make sure you consistently hit the same mileage / hours every week. I don't do any speed work on 45 now and it's got me down to 18:50.

Interesting thank you! I was averaging 35-40 the last few weeks, jumped up to 50 the week before last, and with the week ending yesterday was at 42. I will hold steady at 40-45 and work in speedwork and slow down the EZ runs even more (9:40 or so or even slower) but hammer the workouts.

After the hard 5k on Wed., I worked hard to slow it down and ran 9:40 pace on Thursday for 5, then took Friday off completely. Was able to then do 12 on Saturday feeling fresh (despite a bathroom break 4 miles into it) in 1:34-ish or so (not counting the break; with the break, it was 1:38).

Don't worry about a 5K time when you are training for a marathon. Focus on the marathon. I did three races in the last few weeks before my last marathon.

3 weeks out - Half marathon in 1:36:39 (7:22 pace) *** 5300' elevation

2 weeks out - 10 miler in 1:10:26 (7:03 pace) *** 5300' elevation

1 week out - 5K in 20:41 (6:39 pace) *** 6000' elevation

Marathon - 2:59:00 (6:49 pace) sea level

I was so blasted from the training that only two weeks out I could not even hold 7 minute pace for 10 miles on a flat course. It was at 5300' of altitude but I was living and training at around 6000' so I don't think it affected me too much. Even one week out I ran only 10 seconds faster per mile for 5K than I ended up running for the marathon. You are supposed to feel flat and tired during marathon training. A good taper will get your legs back under you. Don't stress about a race that lasts 20 minutes when you are preparing for one that lasts 3 hours. Stay focused on the final prize.

I just plugged my results into Daniels calculator and adjusted for altitude.

1:36:39 HM @ 5300' = 3:14:22 marathon at sea level

1:10:26 10M @ 5300' = 3:09:29 marathon at sea level

20:41 5K @ 6000' = 3:09:10 marathon at sea level

And yet I ran 2:59 flat.

Well.......you need to run LT intervals and sometimes maxVO2 intervals to speed up your training,

then all your running paces will feel more comfortable and you will improve.

Jack Daniels calculater is better than McMillan`s and is for free.

If you want pro help just contact me at

magic@coachjs.se

jecht wrote:

After the hard 5k on Wed., I worked hard to slow it down and ran 9:40 pace on Thursday for 5, then took Friday off completely. Was able to then do 12 on Saturday feeling fresh (despite a bathroom break 4 miles into it) in 1:34-ish or so (not counting the break; with the break, it was 1:38).

As some of the others are saying, I think there are some inconsistencies in your plan and ironing these out will help a LOT.

1) I agree with another poster that on 40ish mpw, you basically did a "long run" the day before your TT, and you did it at 8:28, which is just above what you call a tempo pace. The day before that you did a 6-mile tempo (I'm assuming that was something at around 8 min pace). If I did a tempo Monday and 20% of my average weekly mileage Tuesday, I'd be exhausted Wednesday. For a 5K TT, better to do a workout 3-4 days before with some strides, then two days before take off, and the day before do 30 minutes with some easy strides.

2) Yeah, good idea backing off on your EZ pace. I'm also 37, and with us being a little older, easy pace is more important to pay attention to. When I was a 21-min 5K guy I ran my easy pace at 8 min, but that was silly and too fast. Now I'm in the 18-19 min range for 5K but take my easy days at 8:40-9, and this is working much better for me. Between your easy and tempo paces is a "no-man's-land" that doesn't help much with your fitness or your recovery.

3) 12 miles in 94 minutes is actually really impressive. I know you took a 4 minute bathroom break. To put in perspective, your 5K TT was approximately 7:25 pace, and then you essentially did 2 x 6 miles w/ 4 min recovery @ 7:50 pace, which is only a few seconds slower than your predicted 10K pace. How tired were you after this workout?

Your 5K pace probably is understating your fitness. But it also seems like you're putting a lot of stress on your body most days and running some tough workouts. I'm not sure how your training is fitting together, and it seems a little all over the place. I'm inferring, so maybe I'm wrong. Do you follow a training plan of some sort or are you just taking it as you go? My humble opinion is you could benefit from some structure.

Of course leg length is a factor as well.

I think you are worrying too much about times right now. Just run.

In my opinion you run too many miles for your level (talent) of running.

Just run for a couple of month and see what happens.

Once races are back you can try another 5k. And you will see that you can do a lot better with some competition around.

Enjoy the process and don't look at your watch too often.

Thanks for the honest responses, everyone.

I know what I need to do now.

When I ran the 12 miles yesterday I felt fine but was annoyed I had to stop to use the bathroom and lost some time. I don't run with a heart rate monitor, just run by feel. I actually didn't feel I was breathing hard at all. My goal was to get the miles in at a steady pace but not too hard. I woke up today but my legs weren't sore at all.

I don't really look at the watch for each mile split; I'll generally just look at the watch at the 1/2 split and at the end.

Right now, I'm just winging it with a base buildup until I hit the Pfitzinger 18/55 training start, which starts in June for my Oct. 20 Marathon (Cbus) or Oct. 31 (Flying Pig).

I'm also considering joining MIT training group in Cbus and that might improve my structure. I've been mainly trying to train myself based on prior knowledge and LRC threads.

So are you saying I should drop down to 25-30 mpw? I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.