Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

Simple math here again with my calculator!

Assuming $64,000 annually divided by 13 athletes, that works out to $410.26 per athlete/month. So double his typical rate to write group training and show up to 3-5 hours of practice every week? Seems pretty good!

Let me know if you need any more math help!

This thread represents what happens when you have 20-somethings running the show.

Do you think Shelby Houlihan or Bowerman athletes complain that Schumacher only spends 8hrs a week helping them because he only shows up for the two hard workouts a week and the rest are on their own?

Of course not. Coaching isn’t working at a shoe story. It’s not an hourly job. You are paying for the years of education, learning and experience so that the coach has the expertise to coach you.

It’s the same reason companies drop thousands of dollars for some consultant to come in. You aren’t paying just for the few hours of help. You are paying for the expertise accumulated over years.

This is a small point but one that shows the disconnect. The expectations were off because you got a bunch of kids who don’t know anything other than HS and college running.

The lack of professionalism and an adult in the room is the downfall of TME. Where in the world is adidas in protecting their investment? Where is Drew’s agent stepping in?

If this was any other sport someone with some sense would have stepped in.

Good statement. IG is full of embarrassing chirping from tweens (including that Harrison kid who will surely look back on this and regret it) and even some ignorant adults (featuring some random, angry woman who is somehow verified). Childish and pathetic. This is a coaching change, plain and simple. People acting like he gave birth to these guys. Get over yourselves.

rojo wrote:

dafuqutalkinbout wrote:

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but you're thinking 17s improvement (2.1%) is possible in 6 months simply by Drew changing his shoes.

But Sam Parsons improving 30s (3.6%) over 4 years out of college is "improving a lot"?

God people are stupid. Drew ran 13:17 in december. I figured based on that he could run 10 seconds faster so like 13:07-10 in the summer. Then give him another 7-10 seconds for the shoes.

And YES, I think a pro improving his 5k time 30 seconds is MASSIVE improvement. Imagine if Lawi Lalang or King Ches improved 30 seconds after college. King Ches is the perfect example here. Why aren't their pages and pages of people bashing his coach? That's a serious question.

I think it's because he isn't on youtube. I don't get why Tinman gets all the hate.

I know I’m just one sorry poster, but I literally bash Haas as a coach at any point I can (which, luckily for me, happens to be just about anytime any of his athletes race).

simple math wrote:

Simple math here again with my calculator!

Assuming $64,000 annually divided by 13 athletes, that works out to $410.26 per athlete/month. So double his typical rate to write group training and show up to 3-5 hours of practice every week? Seems pretty good!

Let me know if you need any more math help!

Wanna do the math on how much it costs to move to Colorado for us?

The 2K per month is for TME runners, not Drew. That is $153 per month for 13 runners.

ErolsInternet wrote:

This is a coaching change, plain and simple. People acting like he gave birth to these guys. Get over yourselves.

True, perhaps. But Tinman did play a big part in birthing the public image of Drew Hunter. He also played a role in birthing the new career of the people who actually did give birth to him. And since LRC birthed the public image of Tinman, and many of us came of age sharing ideas with him here decades ago, you can understand why we take offense at what sounds like needlessly cold treatment of a wise elder by an ungrateful mentee.

RunnerConnection wrote:

The 2K per month is for TME runners, not Drew. That is $153 per month for 13 runners.

I’m pretty sure Drew is on TME.

trirunner74 wrote:

RunnerConnection wrote:

The 2K per month is for TME runners, not Drew. That is $153 per month for 13 runners.

I’m pretty sure Drew is on TME.

But for some reason he had a separate rate, which makes no sense to me. Did Schwartz pay him extra special attention that he didn't give the other guys or something? Why did he pay more?

The Dirty Duck wrote:

ErolsInternet wrote:

This is a coaching change, plain and simple. People acting like he gave birth to these guys. Get over yourselves.

True, perhaps. But Tinman did play a big part in birthing the public image of Drew Hunter. He also played a role in birthing the new career of the people who actually did give birth to him. And since LRC birthed the public image of Tinman, and many of us came of age sharing ideas with him here decades ago, you can understand why we take offense at what sounds like needlessly cold treatment of a wise elder by an ungrateful mentee.

I'd also add that it just makes their whole operation disingenuous to what they prescribe to be. They pushed to be the hardworking, outdoorsy, granola good guys who work hard together in "brotherhood" to push the sport forward. But in reality when things aren't going how they want they'll spit you out if you're the "weak link" and leave you to dry. It doesn't mean they can't have a coaching change or even a team change. But it certainly means they should plan out these decisions better, and not blindside their head coach with no explanation after clearly taking advantage of him.

With all due respect, what is wrong with these athletes paying $153 a month for his coaching services? That's $50 a month less than he is making with his normal clients, and doesn't account for the ancillary benefits that accompany coaching pros/ semi-pros. It seems disingenuous to suggest that Tom's status in the running world, along with his list of interested clients, didn't go up due to his association with the group.

I have been a fan of Tom's for longer than his tenure with Drew, however even amongst my group of running obsessed friends, no one had heard of Tom before he started coaching Drew and the other tinmen. Now, even the kids on my high school team that I coach know of him (these are kids who don't even know who Pre is.)

This elevation in status for Coach Schwartz came in large part due to the work that the group but into cultivating a following.

Furthermore, it's also unfair to compare his situation to that of Rosario or Schumacher. They are employees of HOKA and Nike respectively; the athletes in those groups are not paying their coaches. Maybe you could argue that Adidas should have kicked in a little extra on behalf of Parsons, Fisher, and Gusman, but for those other guys, $150 seems more than fair, considering the aforementioned benefits.

Tammy- can you answer honestly whether his number of interested athletes went up once he started working with the group?

I would conclude by saying that I do still mostly "side" with Tom. The group was certainly unprofessional in their dealing with Tom, will almost certainly not find a better coach to replace him, and the fractured relationship between drew and Tom is upsetting. I truly hope the best for him going forward. That said, I don't think that he was being underpaid by these athletes with no contracts,.

The $2k/$153 per runner looks like a discount on the usual $200 per month for online coaching.

$40k a year (simple math's estimate) for coaching one runner sounds reasonable even generous. College coaches can make a lot more but they're responsible for multiple events and dozens of athletes. Private coaches who do well financially have several clients or have their own backers.

You’re literally an idiot — he got in because people ahead of him failed to chase the standard. Anyone with a brain would be absolutely shocked if drew hunter made the team this year.

elemenr wrote:

I think there have been a lot of changes already as well besides coaching. Some people pointed out before, but Reed was the only one who ran as Adidas / Tinman Elite at Drake Relays. Parsons and Gusman ran under Adidas, Jeff Thies ran unattached.

Seems like a crappy situation all around seems like Hunter has too many birds chirping in his ear and can't make his own decision with all these influences. Those people are to blame.

Multiple people have posted this, but I don’t think it’s worth reading into — there have been numerous times that some bowerman athletes (I specially remember it happening more in the days of Teg) would show up as “Kimbia” and others as “bowerman/kimbia” or “bowerman” in results ( the group may not have been btc yet, so maybe otc? I can’t remember the official name) and we’d all speculate what was going on.

We've udpated the initial article.

In terms of payment. Let me clarify a few things as Weldon clearly didn't read everything. The TME guys were paying Tom $2k per month - a discount on the standard $200 per month he charges. Drew's adidas contract had a separate coaching stipdend in it that Tammy said was around the range of a beginning teacher's salary,.

She has also said he never made $60k from the team so I would guess he was making in the 50s from the team if we combine the two income sources once the TME guys starting paying him (she said he didn't charge them at first) as a stipend in the 30s seems about right based on what I know about the normal coaching stipend % and the rumors of how large Drew's contract is.

But according to Tammy, he was getting zero in merch sales and zero from the athletes doing their own coaching on the side.

To move from cheap Idaho to expnesive Boulder with a family for 50k a year and no multi-year guarantee in writing was not smart. But we as runners all know how powerful the dream is (when I started at Cornell the salary was 13k per year and they had a ton of people wanting the job) and we also all know how powerful the coach-athlete bond is when things are going well. They probably never imagined it would turn ugly.

This whole thing reminds me of why they say never to go into business with friends or relatives. You can't imagine something will go wrong but it inevitably does and then it's awful afterwards.

Yes but what about the income coming from the private clients? Even if he limits himself to 20 people, that’s an extra 50k a year on top of the ~55k from Tinman/ Drew.

Making 100k + off of coaching is more than most could dream of.

The PhD, the camps, and coaching a middle school team (is this true???) are things that other pro coaches wouldn’t generally do, especially in the heart of the Olympic trials build up. I could certainly see why the team felt he was spreads too thin.

Hi Tammy. I was a participant in your husbands PHD study. In the two interactions I had with him it was clear he was extremely proud of his athletes but came off extremely arrogant. Nobody knows what they are talking about except for him in the 2-3 examples he shared about his TME athletes.

The good

I was really excited to connect as I really enjoy his work but I wish I hadn’t after these brief encounters (also didn’t help he sent right wing propaganda texts multiple times a week for a month after meeting). You can be a great coach and a jerk, things in life aren’t binary.

I wish the best for him. With his pedigree he will land on his feet. Perhaps just focusing and developing elite HS athletes is the next chapter.

altitude_hermiit wrote:

Yes but what about the income coming from the private clients? Even if he limits himself to 20 people, that’s an extra 50k a year on top of the ~55k from Tinman/ Drew.

Making 100k + off of coaching is more than most could dream of.

The PhD, the camps, and coaching a middle school team (is this true???) are things that other pro coaches wouldn’t generally do, especially in the heart of the Olympic trials build up. I could certainly see why the team felt he was spreads too thin.

If he didn’t do those things he would be able to afford to live in Boulder.

As stated above, Schumacher only goes to the hard workouts. I don’t he goes on the European circuit with them either.

This whole thing reflects awfully in terms of character and morals on Drew and Tinman Elite, and awfully in terms of critical thinking on Adidas and Tinman.

How on earth did adidas decide to offer Drew a 10y contract worth x00k per year, give him a x0k per year coaching stipend, and then just send him on his merry way with no development plan, coach or team to support him, all the while with his mom telling him what to do? Then, when the team becomes a relative cash-cow, they don’t officially sponsor it, employ Tom, and make money off of them?

Meanwhile, Tinman just trusts that Drew will keep paying him and moves to a very expensive place to coach a team of nobodies, with no official contract and lets said team cash in on his likeness?

Lastly, the Tinman Elites, making money off of teen boys with a likeness they didn’t come up with and acting like they’re Olympic finalists — they send Conor Winter to fire Tinman (or apparently just make him call Tinman). I was apathetic towards them before but now pretty legitimately hate them. But they’re pushing the sport forward!!

The whole situation is endlessly amusing to me, outside of the fact that Tinman himself sounds like he got screwed. Adidas sounds completely incompetent, and if I were there I’d ban any TME merch being made with adidas gear. Their whole running division is rudderless, with professionals floating around aimlessly, with the exception of BAA and the old Mahon/Mammoth group.

What a Sunday night delight.