Did Joaquim Cruz reach his potential?

On the one hand you’re right, he was young when he ran his best and conventional wisdom suggests he should’ve peaked in his later years. On the other hand he ran 1:41 and won the Olympic gold so it’s hard to say he underachieved.

Athletes peak at different times due to genetics, training style, mindset and injury history (although this can be related to genetics). Hard to say the move to the 1500m was his downfall as he doubled 8/15 at the NCAA meet the year he won the Olympic and ran 1:41 so it’s not like it was doing him any harm then.

Also from what I’ve read he began running at 13 and he did have the WJR for 800 so not like he was late to the sport

Probably didn't reach his potential but who does

Cram and ovett could have gone faster and Coe

Cruz competed at Atlanta in 96 so he stayed around

He was at least 26 in 84.

I met this guy 20 years ago, still in great shape then.

Difficult to say what was going on, then, as there are a lot of unanswered questions re many of the athletes in that era.

one thing i noticed in watching old footage of cruz was his running style and form was VERY VERY similar to el G.....long powerful stride! if he could have gotten on that EPO sauce he prob would have been 1:40 and 3:26.

watching his face he is straining hard all the time but fluid and smooth, i think he redlined too many times and thats what broke down his body, EPO would have kept him from red lining for sure, but maybe his mentality would have been like daniel komen who redlined too many times and he was on EPO.....they should do a 30 on 30 or something on cruz i would love to learn more about the guy!

stan the corgi wrote:

Difficult to say what was going on, then, as there are a lot of unanswered questions re many of the athletes in that era.

His progression seems entirely normal aside from the fact that he peaked early. HGH came out in 1983 and might have played a part in the improvement in 800m times (along with all the sprint times), but he broke the world junior record in 81.

He was almost kicked out of the Seoul Olympics for (correctly) calling out Flo Jo.

Coevett wrote:

stan the corgi wrote:

Difficult to say what was going on, then, as there are a lot of unanswered questions re many of the athletes in that era.

His progression seems entirely normal aside from the fact that he peaked early. HGH came out in 1983 and might have played a part in the improvement in 800m times (along with all the sprint times), but he broke the world junior record in 81.

He was almost kicked out of the Seoul Olympics for (correctly) calling out Flo Jo.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-09-30-sp-3145-story.html

also worth mentioning is where he came from...brazil. do they have a history of HGH EPO like morocco? you really think he was blood doping in his slum neighborhood? no the look on his face when he is running shows he was red lining, when you grow up brutal in slums you can endure way more than most people. think of roberto duran or manny in boxing. kenyans and other east africans grow up "poor" but you dont get any of them coming from the slums of the cities, they come from rural areas where they have hard living but not slum hard living.

and besides russia state run doping living their was super harsh, case in point Anatoli Boukreev

the bada$$ mountaineer who rescued all those people in the 1996 Everest disaster, he never used bottled oxygen and was superhuman in adverse conditions and he wasnt anything to look at. when asked how he was able to endure and crush in the high mountains he replied something like "surviving and suffering in the mountains is way easier than surviving growing up in russia"

like i said

Very simpel answer on this, YES!

I wasn't aware of his leg discrepancy, and shoe requirements. Any more on that?

TrackFan55 wrote:

On the one hand you’re right, he was young when he ran his best and conventional wisdom suggests he should’ve peaked in his later years. On the other hand he ran 1:41 and won the Olympic gold so it’s hard to say he underachieved.

Athletes peak at different times due to genetics, training style, mindset and injury history (although this can be related to genetics). Hard to say the move to the 1500m was his downfall as he doubled 8/15 at the NCAA meet the year he won the Olympic and ran 1:41 so it’s not like it was doing him any harm then.

Also from what I’ve read he began running at 13 and he did have the WJR for 800 so not like he was late to the sport

The original poster never suggested that Cruz underachieved. Only suggested that he didn't reach his potential.

Age of OG 800m winners

1948 - Whitfield 24

1952 - Whitfield 28

1956 - Courtney 22

1960 - Snell 21

1964 - Snell 25

1968 - Doubell 23

1972 - Wottle 22

1976 - Juantorena 25

1980 - Ovett 24

1984 - Cruz 21

1988 - Ereng 22

1992 - Tanui 28

1996 - Rodal 23

2000 - Schumann 22

2004 - Borzakovskiy 23

2008 - Bungei 28

2012 - Rudisha 23

2016 - Rudisha 27

This is Jim Kiler wrote:

I wasn't aware of his leg discrepancy, and shoe requirements. Any more on that?

This was what caused the lower leg injuries that derailed him. Nike made special shoes for him but it was never gonna be enough, his training shoes difference was huge. Several peeps I know who worked for the swoosh said he was the most talented MD guy nike had ever signed, better then Coe.

i met cruz, running stairs at haward in the evening and saw his training, i was there for 90 minutes and it was a real tough, high intensity workout.

it was nothing like bill dellingers methods, zero.

cruz had his own coach from brazil, where the ditched the criminal brazil athletic body. parasites.

cruz was doing a lot of jumps over hurdles, and intervals with very short recovery.

coe revolutionized 800 training , with cross traning and depth jumps, and he probably went too far with the lydiard mileage thing, in some seasons.

people should take a look at cruz traning methods, once again.

the lydiard approach, if you modify it toward more quality, and ample rest, and do the hill bounding especially on fresh legs, and get rid of the entirely stupid 22 mile runs,

in the end, the 141 guys training is correct or nearly so.

again we're talking about a guy that can comfortably run 46 quarter and run very decently cross country.

all of this is well known, but not well enough.

oh ya, the main question,

ya cruz could easily go 1 second faster in the 800 very obviously, in a better paced race, without heats where he ran 141.

and every last runner out there never optimized, or not one you can name.

i mean ovett, coe, cram, elliot, moorcroft, ran well below their potential

walker ran 332 and after that had like one proper training season after 74, and had to figure out how to make is off 70% of optimal. that dude ran 451 2000m alone in weird pacing in the rain and wind, and that was his peak, meanwhile his rival bayi, was the same, with malaria,

moorcroft ran 13 flat 5000m with serious calf issues screqing up his traning.

and you can go on down the list.

track is a very cruel sport to do, basically it tortures everyone, except bekele and geb, and that moe farah guy.

you just want to enjoy it, while its going good.

my hero john walker, took his lumps and enjoyed his second carear as a super journeyman, knowing if he could train properly, he'd have been battling ovett, probably successfully at his peak.

so all those 141 guys could go 140 or even 139.

you can go ask them for proof.

what ever WAS the perfect race I wonder...

surely Rudisha with his boy Sammy Tangui pacing, could have run sub 1:40 sometime in 2012

fresh without rounds

the guys that are super consistent are the PED guys.

you can make it through the tough training better, and recover better.

that said, if you don't know what you're doing, PEDs can lead to a premature end to your career, or death, particularly for women doing testosterone, cardio problems.

and in men, if they don't strengthen cartridge, connective tissue, the will tear the muscle from the bone

you can see it.

with the roids, you can simply look at over developed muscles that are not used in any aspect of running.... nor particularly used even in cross training and weights.

that visual is 100%

as is the lady with a beard, and new baritone voice, etc.

etc.etc.

jabouko wrote:

what ever WAS the perfect race I wonder...

surely Rudisha with his boy Sammy Tangui pacing, could have run sub 1:40 sometime in 2012

fresh without rounds

the perfect race, or approximately so, rare bird that it is happens.

though i can't think of one, but monaco tends to set it up pretty good, in that race you have 335 guys running 332, and then they think it's real, which it is not, as they won't run anything close in a normal race, hence they become delusional.

the best super races happen to have several top guys on top of their game, and someone takes out the pace, and there is never a major let up.

like in 2012 800m and 74 commonwealth 1500.

you can run really fast if you get it kind of right.

its just going to be a very rare thing the perfect race.