What is Gun Control Really About?

Runningart2004 wrote:

Uncle Samson wrote:

Whether you are for, against or not sure on guns, here are some stats (mostly from the CDC) that must be considered to ensure factual context in this debate. I think many people will be surprised by the actual numbers. In my opinion they raise some big questions about the role of the press, what is really going on and why.

Number of deaths for top 10 annual leading causes of death in the US (from the CDC website):

Heart disease: 659,041

Cancer: 599,601

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005

Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499

Diabetes: 87,647

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565

Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783

Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

Do you notice what is not on that list?

All Firearms deaths total are at about 39,707 a year. That is for accidental death, suicide and murder. That is roughly the same as the number of deaths from motor vehicle accidents.

Also ranking above all firearms deaths: Poisoning 75,041, Blood Poisoning 40,922, Parkinson's Disease 31,963, Liver Disease (chronic and alcohol related) about 40,000, Kidney disease and many other causes. I saw one stat saying that nearly 50,000 a year die from some aspect of opioid use.

All Firearms homicides rank about 31st on the list of all causes of death in the United States, at about 14,000 a year. 64% of those use handguns. Just 4% are from all rifles, including "assault rifles". So roughly 560 homicides a year are caused by all rifles, and some percentage of that number of 560 used "assault rifles". Some estimate the number of deaths from "assault rifles" to be roughly equal to Joe Biden's preferred firearm, the shotgun (at 2%). In 2018 373 people died in what are classified as "mass shootings" which I believe is any shooting in which 4 or more people are killed, be that domestic violence, gang shootings, workplace violence or the much sensationalized mass shootings we see on TV. You would think that millions were killed each year in mass shootings.

There are more than 328,000,000 people in the United States. 373 die each year from mass shootings. 560 die each year from all types of rifles, including "assault rifles". That is .000001 % of the population.

Any death that can be prevented, or any death rate that can be reduced, should be. I am by no means making light of a single death. We should be continually striving to improve life in every way possible. However, the priorities should be right and the focus, energy, PR, etc should be on the actual top causes of death and quality of life issues first.

Death in general cannot be prevented. Nor can a Utopia be created in which everyone always does good and nobody ever does bad. People are people and you cannot control or stop everyone from doing something bad, no matter what you do, no matter how many laws you enact, etc. Even if you could (you can't), that would mean zero freedom. Is zero freedom worth anything (not to mention that countries in which the populations are controlled the most tend to be murdered far more by their own governments).

So the Democrats and the President of the United States are prioritizing a "public health crisis" of guns, with a clear goal of taking guns away from the population at some point, if they can figure out a way to get there. The majority of the press supports this (why?) and pushes hard a false and sensationalized narrative, and does not share the types of facts listed in this post.

Despite their efforts, so far the public is not in favor of the kind of gun control they want to enact, but a slight majority is in favor of stricter gun laws, whatever that means. Presumably this support is at least significantly a result of the way the media reports on gun violence and not knowing what the actual stats are.

All this emotion and effort is being put forth for gun control and there is a heavy push to ban "assault rifles". Again, All firearm homicides are at about 14,000 a year from all causes (presumably the majority of these are perpetrated by criminals and not by law abiding citizens that legally own guns). 64% of those are handguns. Again, 560 die each year from all types of rifles, (.000001 % of the population) of which "assault rifles" are included as some percentage of that 560.

Meanwhile, about 660,000 people die each year from Heart Disease. 600,000 a year from Cancers. Those are over 2,000X greater causes of death than all rifles.

Why is this such a critical agenda item for the Democrats? Are they stupid and don't know the actual statistics?

That seams highly unlikely. Or are they smart, and figure that you and most Americans are completely oblivious to the statistics? And if that is the case, then why is this such a major issue? If they know the stats, and are pushing this hard despite the stats, what reason is there? Why so much effort, lies and sensationalism to get American's to give up a right that is the second amendment the Forefathers put in the US Constitution?

Meanwhile, what if they spend as much energy on real public health emergencies like Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, and all the other diseases that do far more damage and thousands upon thousands times the number of deaths. What if they were as aggressive with the Pharmaceutical industry, or the junk food industry, or the alcohol industry, or any other industries that directly and indirectly cause far more deaths, far more health issues, and far more costs. Heck, what if they forced the auto industry to build safer cars that would save a larger percentage of the 40,000 Americans who die in auto accidents each year (71X more than die from all rifles each year).

If you like emotion and especially the emotion of fear, then guns and assault rifles are the top problem in the United States. Ignore the facts. If you are 100% committed to a political dogma and don't care if it is based on truth or lies, don't care if it is actually good or not, and you are committed to hold to that dogma no matter what, then at least admit that. Certainly don't hold your politicians accountable to the truth or to actually doing something about causes of death such as Heart Disease and Cancer which account for over 1.2 million deaths a year. 1,250,000 vs. 14,000 vs. 560.

If you support gun control when all the other causes of death are being proportionally ignored, they you are being played by a government that does not care about you and is not working in your best interest. It's a shell game and you are oblivious and as long as you don't do anything about the game being played on you, they will definitely keep playing it.

Cure Cancer, Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke, Lower Respiratory Disease, Parkinson's, Kidney Disease, Liver Disease, Pneumonia, and a lot of other diseases. Make motor vehicles safer. Clean up the pharmaceutical industry.

Deal with mental health issues that are the actual cause of most violence (the gun doesn't kill people, the mentally ill person that has possession of that gun does). Reform the criminal justice system while still dealing strongly with crime. Then, when you've done all that at the very least, then come talk to me about the dangers of firearms. Before then it is just a smoke and mirrors plan to remove your rights.

(By the way, it is estimated that there are over 393 million civilian held firearms in the United States as of 2020, which is almost certainly lower than it really is. There are well over 100 million people in the United States that own a firearm. In 2020, over 5,000,000 Americans purchased a firearm (about 23,000,000 firearms sold in 2020), an estimated 40% (2,000,000) of which were first time buyers. So far in 2021, January 2 million firearms sold, February 1.5 million firearms sold, March 4 million firearms sold [which puts us over the 400 million mark]. Two thoughts. First, for the number of firearms owners and the number of firearms in the US, the number of deaths and homicides is comparatively very low. Second, how would you remove all those, and what percentage of well over 100 million people would even hand them over, or worse? For many people, removal of the second amendment is the same as removal of the entire constitution.)

Cool story bro...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

I don't have an issue with pistols, hunting rifles, or shotguns....

....but why does every hick, Billy, Timmy, and Tom need a dozen AR-15 variants? Why did it take the Las Vegas shooting to ban bump stocks?

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Uncle Samson wrote:

Whether you are for, against or not sure on guns, here are some stats (mostly from the CDC) that must be considered to ensure factual context in this debate. I think many people will be surprised by the actual numbers. In my opinion they raise some big questions about the role of the press, what is really going on and why.

Number of deaths for top 10 annual leading causes of death in the US (from the CDC website):

Heart disease: 659,041

Cancer: 599,601

Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040

Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979

Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005

Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499

Diabetes: 87,647

Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565

Influenza and pneumonia: 49,783

Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511

Do you notice what is not on that list?

All Firearms deaths total are at about 39,707 a year. That is for accidental death, suicide and murder. That is roughly the same as the number of deaths from motor vehicle accidents.

Also ranking above all firearms deaths: Poisoning 75,041, Blood Poisoning 40,922, Parkinson's Disease 31,963, Liver Disease (chronic and alcohol related) about 40,000, Kidney disease and many other causes. I saw one stat saying that nearly 50,000 a year die from some aspect of opioid use.

All Firearms homicides rank about 31st on the list of all causes of death in the United States, at about 14,000 a year. 64% of those use handguns. Just 4% are from all rifles, including "assault rifles". So roughly 560 homicides a year are caused by all rifles, and some percentage of that number of 560 used "assault rifles". Some estimate the number of deaths from "assault rifles" to be roughly equal to Joe Biden's preferred firearm, the shotgun (at 2%). In 2018 373 people died in what are classified as "mass shootings" which I believe is any shooting in which 4 or more people are killed, be that domestic violence, gang shootings, workplace violence or the much sensationalized mass shootings we see on TV. You would think that millions were killed each year in mass shootings.

There are more than 328,000,000 people in the United States. 373 die each year from mass shootings. 560 die each year from all types of rifles, including "assault rifles". That is .000001 % of the population.

Any death that can be prevented, or any death rate that can be reduced, should be. I am by no means making light of a single death. We should be continually striving to improve life in every way possible. However, the priorities should be right and the focus, energy, PR, etc should be on the actual top causes of death and quality of life issues first.

Death in general cannot be prevented. Nor can a Utopia be created in which everyone always does good and nobody ever does bad. People are people and you cannot control or stop everyone from doing something bad, no matter what you do, no matter how many laws you enact, etc. Even if you could (you can't), that would mean zero freedom. Is zero freedom worth anything (not to mention that countries in which the populations are controlled the most tend to be murdered far more by their own governments).

So the Democrats and the President of the United States are prioritizing a "public health crisis" of guns, with a clear goal of taking guns away from the population at some point, if they can figure out a way to get there. The majority of the press supports this (why?) and pushes hard a false and sensationalized narrative, and does not share the types of facts listed in this post.

Despite their efforts, so far the public is not in favor of the kind of gun control they want to enact, but a slight majority is in favor of stricter gun laws, whatever that means. Presumably this support is at least significantly a result of the way the media reports on gun violence and not knowing what the actual stats are.

All this emotion and effort is being put forth for gun control and there is a heavy push to ban "assault rifles". Again, All firearm homicides are at about 14,000 a year from all causes (presumably the majority of these are perpetrated by criminals and not by law abiding citizens that legally own guns). 64% of those are handguns. Again, 560 die each year from all types of rifles, (.000001 % of the population) of which "assault rifles" are included as some percentage of that 560.

Meanwhile, about 660,000 people die each year from Heart Disease. 600,000 a year from Cancers. Those are over 2,000X greater causes of death than all rifles.

Why is this such a critical agenda item for the Democrats? Are they stupid and don't know the actual statistics?

That seams highly unlikely. Or are they smart, and figure that you and most Americans are completely oblivious to the statistics? And if that is the case, then why is this such a major issue? If they know the stats, and are pushing this hard despite the stats, what reason is there? Why so much effort, lies and sensationalism to get American's to give up a right that is the second amendment the Forefathers put in the US Constitution?

Meanwhile, what if they spend as much energy on real public health emergencies like Heart Disease, Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, and all the other diseases that do far more damage and thousands upon thousands times the number of deaths. What if they were as aggressive with the Pharmaceutical industry, or the junk food industry, or the alcohol industry, or any other industries that directly and indirectly cause far more deaths, far more health issues, and far more costs. Heck, what if they forced the auto industry to build safer cars that would save a larger percentage of the 40,000 Americans who die in auto accidents each year (71X more than die from all rifles each year).

If you like emotion and especially the emotion of fear, then guns and assault rifles are the top problem in the United States. Ignore the facts. If you are 100% committed to a political dogma and don't care if it is based on truth or lies, don't care if it is actually good or not, and you are committed to hold to that dogma no matter what, then at least admit that. Certainly don't hold your politicians accountable to the truth or to actually doing something about causes of death such as Heart Disease and Cancer which account for over 1.2 million deaths a year. 1,250,000 vs. 14,000 vs. 560.

If you support gun control when all the other causes of death are being proportionally ignored, they you are being played by a government that does not care about you and is not working in your best interest. It's a shell game and you are oblivious and as long as you don't do anything about the game being played on you, they will definitely keep playing it.

Cure Cancer, Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke, Lower Respiratory Disease, Parkinson's, Kidney Disease, Liver Disease, Pneumonia, and a lot of other diseases. Make motor vehicles safer. Clean up the pharmaceutical industry.

Deal with mental health issues that are the actual cause of most violence (the gun doesn't kill people, the mentally ill person that has possession of that gun does). Reform the criminal justice system while still dealing strongly with crime. Then, when you've done all that at the very least, then come talk to me about the dangers of firearms. Before then it is just a smoke and mirrors plan to remove your rights.

(By the way, it is estimated that there are over 393 million civilian held firearms in the United States as of 2020, which is almost certainly lower than it really is. There are well over 100 million people in the United States that own a firearm. In 2020, over 5,000,000 Americans purchased a firearm (about 23,000,000 firearms sold in 2020), an estimated 40% (2,000,000) of which were first time buyers. So far in 2021, January 2 million firearms sold, February 1.5 million firearms sold, March 4 million firearms sold [which puts us over the 400 million mark]. Two thoughts. First, for the number of firearms owners and the number of firearms in the US, the number of deaths and homicides is comparatively very low. Second, how would you remove all those, and what percentage of well over 100 million people would even hand them over, or worse? For many people, removal of the second amendment is the same as removal of the entire constitution.)

Cool story bro...

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/08/05/743579605/how-the-u-s-compares-to-other-countries-in-deaths-from-gun-violence

I don't have an issue with pistols, hunting rifles, or shotguns....

....but why does every hick, Billy, Timmy, and Tom need a dozen AR-15 variants? Why did it take the Las Vegas shooting to ban bump stocks?

Alan

Uncle Samson wrote:

michaeltheheart wrote:

Thanks for the essay, Uncle Samson, but it's all a red herring. The only country in the world where mass shootings are consistently tolerated is the United States. If you can't see the correlation with the number of guns in the hands of citizens in your country, then you're part of the problem.

It's interesting that Liberals tend to respond with short sound bites and general statements or insults. Emotion is still the primary concern or response of Liberals. The facts are there. Instead of facts and real interested debate, just emotional responses programmed by an extreme political philosophy and an emotional "guns are bad!" instinct.

I didn't start this thread to convince the brainwashed Liberals that hold to their anti-gun rhetoric no matter what information is provided. I started this thread to provide facts to people who may have had an opinion based on sensationalist news stories and propaganda, that maybe thought that gun deaths were in the millions each year, that thought "assault rifles" are killing everyone and that thought that mass shootings were everywhere. The fear and lies that have been put out there have certainly painted a picture for many, which has caused them to have an opinion. That is understandable. If the information you have is sensational and scary, you will naturally respond as they expect. But that opinion has been based on what has been fed them, not based on considering the facts and realities. I'm hoping that some people will be open to the actual data, the philosophies being supported and might see that there is far more to this than the media and the Democrat party have pushed and that much of what they have pushed is an outright lie.

I started this thread to pose a question of why the media and the Decomcrat party is so obsessed with the second amendment, when this problem is not remotely as large as reported. Why there isn't an equal, preferably a much larger, interest in solving the 30+ other much larger causes of death in the United States. What is the reason guns are a higher target than so many other things that would seem to be worthy of a higher priority?

Why the dramatic and intense interest in fundamentally weakening or removing our right to bear arms, when the numbers don't support that level of drama or interest?

The post about the reason for the second amendment is right to my point. What if the reason for this interest in removing our rights is nefarious? What if it is to ensure the government has all power and can do whatever it wants? What if the false narrative and sensationalism is to convince people to willingly give away a right that protects all the other rights?

That's it. I am hoping that those who really care about things, but don't have all the facts, and have been led to believe something far worse, will look at the facts and modify their feelings on the subject if they feel it is compelling. I am not saying we should accept gun deaths. I am saying that the solution cannot be loss of our second amendment rights. I am saying that the problem has been blown way out of proportion for political purposes. I am saying that not making decisions on the actual facts is irresponsible. I am also saying we should be putting more effort into curing heart disease and cancer and many other things that kills thousands of times as many people. We should not just be accepting those things as part of life (and death). With our technology we can't solve any of those? Or are we not really trying because those in power have too much to gain from pharmaceutical companies and such that profit massively off of disease? How much is the disease industry worth?

I'm also asking people to think about the consequences of their actions. If the government decided to take away guns, what would happen? Would that be worth it and how would that compare to the current problem in its current state? It's not as simple as, "give us your guns" "OK". What is reduction or elimination of the full American right to have and bear arms worth? Is the proposed solution far worth than the problem? Think through these things. Don't be surprised by them after you make an uneducated or irresponsible decision.

So if anti-gun is a religion to you and you are unwilling to consider anything else, go ahead and leave your one or two line general comments or insults. If you want to examine the facts and consider deeply a complex problem and not make rash decisions that compromise our freedoms or that have dramatic unintended consequences, then please read and consider.

(BTW, I am not saying we do nothing. I am saying that the entirety of our right to have and bear arms cannot be taken or weakened. That is not the solution. That does not mean there aren't things that might be done to positively impact gun deaths, even if they are far behind other deaths. It would be far more productive for the Democrats to approach it from there than for Joe Biden to say he wants to ban "assault rifles" and other dramatic things that tell people he is extreme. Those are the real "red-herrings" and they derail any possibility of actually making intelligent effective changes that reduce the problem without infringing on our rights.)